Nick Perelman: DID GOD OR MAN GIVE YOU THE ISRAEL OF TODAY?

Fuzzman

Hello Nick, it is so good to see you active again in this forum after such a long lapse. I have been tracking your existence in other foreign religion forums too during your long lapse and have seen you somewhat show off quite an acceptable level of "marksmanship", although quite monotonous at times.
Never mind the small talk and let's get back to the chase shall we?  Before I begin, I would like all to know that this thread is dedicated to the rose of the forum - noone other than Baiduri Othman - for I've read somewere that she really missed my "The true Land of Milk and Honey" already obliteriated old thread that you were also party to for its many pages.

The question from me is this :-
DID GOD OR MAN GIVE YOU THE ISRAEL OF TODAY?

Before you begin answering, let me make it clear that I have many Jewish friends living in Israel who are not party, partizan nor share the Zionistic view of what Israel is today although they do live in Israel, living bravely over the fear and hatred that they are exposed to each and every day. From you the answer shall I wait. May the Zionistic force be with you from here on.

ARI FUZZMAN

Acong

ekekeke..... cemana cari boleh wat iklan camnie? nie semua pasal google......

Debmey

How can anyone question the origin of Israel?
The revival of the nation of Israel was nothing short of divine miracle!

All those countries who war against Israel are suffering. All those countries who persecuted Jews suffered greatly. The Russians, Poles, Spaniards, Arabs, Iranians, Bosnians and Brits.

So watch out my frens. Be careful of what you say. God will bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who cursed the Jews.

Fuzzman

Looks like our green zefardea'a is not allowing himself into this thread. Could it be because of some old forgotten Jewish taboo?  Anyone has a right to question the origin of Israel just as everyone has a right to question Israel's nuclear capabilities and subsequent violation and proliferation of a regional non-nuclear treaty. Zionist Israel without the help of the US is nothing. The US is the Zionist proxy to true global terrorism.

And what pray tell me does Debbo write to mean that the creation of Israel was nothing short of a miracle? The creation of Israel was to contain the Disporia by a biblical pre-requisite. It means two things. The first is a clause from the past that spells a vesy convenient EXIT STRATEGY. Secondly in easy words to you means that nobody wants to handle the Jewish dilemma. Nick would readily agree that the first choice of Israel was not Israel. Ask Nick for the first choice of Israel. I'm sure he'd be too shy to tell you the answer. That is why Nick is not loud in this thread although he's reading it alright. Hi Nick, how's the going bro?

This piece of document created the state of Zionist Israel. Does it look in anyway Godly to you? So does it say God's Declaration or Mr.Balfour's Declaration?



This Debmey is Mr.James Balfour, the originator of the Balfour Declaration. Although made in the image of God as all of us are, is he the face of God?
And finally Debbo, going by what is happening in matters of global persecution of faith, looks like the true Jews today are Moslems because Moslems have kept to the law of ONE GOD, respect of all prophets, circumcision, kosher all the way and the belief of the Second Coming. Can you say that for yourself?

ARI FUZZMAN

Nick_Perelman

Yep, revival of Israel is part of G-d's promise. Read Leviticus 26. All the best, Nick.

Debmey

Fuzzman has never read the Bible before. Thats why he doesn't know.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 28-5-2006 10:29 PM
Yep, revival of Israel is part of G-d's promise. Read Leviticus 26. All the best, Nick.

Hello Green Frog! Thanks for not missing out in here. Why quote Lev 26? I think Leviticus is your anti-climax Nick.  What you suffer in Israel today for the Zionist entity has made Leviticus 26 a reality in terror. Terror as promised by YHWH for going the other way. Zionism runs in opposites with peace and what God requires of Jews. You should go in reverse and seek out God's covenant with Jacob for true Israel is Jacob and Jacob be Israel.

Tell me Nick, where was the first choice made by the Father of Zionism for the state of Israel? Best wishes to you too.

ARI FUZZMAN

Nick_Perelman

Leviticus 26 predicts expulsion of Jews and this happaned. It also says follow:

32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.

Now lets check  Britannica encyclopedia:

Galilee became impoverished after the Arab conquest (636)....
After the Arab conquest of Palestine (7th century AD), the Negev was left desolate; for more than 1,200 years it supported only a meagre population of nomadic Bedouin....
By the end of the 19th century, the forests had disappeared, and the plain was sparsely populated by Bedouin and village Arabs. Because of the low relief, the numerous small streams and wadis in the area formed swamps in the winter rainy season; malaria was endemic....


Arab Villiage at the foot of Mount Tabor (apparently Daburiya) 1887


Arab Settlement in the Esdraelon Valley 1910

Here Mark Twain describes deserted Holy Land in his book:

Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye. Renowned Jerusalem itself, the stateliest name in history, has lost all its ancient grandeur, and is become a pauper village;

The noted Sea of Galilee, where Roman fleets once rode at anchor and the disciples of the Saviour sailed in their ships, was long ago deserted by the devotees of war and commerce, and its borders are a silent wilderness; Capernaum is a shapeless ruin; Magdala is the home of beggared Arabs; Bethsaida and Chorazin have vanished from the earth, and the "desert places" round about them where thousands of men once listened to the Saviour's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes.

Palestine is desolate and unlovely. And why should it be otherwise? Can the curse of the Deity beautify a land? Palestine is no more of this work-day world. It is sacred to poetry and tradition--it is dream-land.

Holy Land became desolate during Jewish exile. Exactly as Torah predicted!

36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. 37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.  38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

Here Torah predicts persecution of Jews outside of Israel, that Jews outside wont be able to resist their oppressors. This is exactly what happaned. Millions of Jews died in persecution.

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. 44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

But G-d wont break the covenant with Jews. He will again return them to Holy Land and it will again will became flourish.

Again from Britannica:

The region's revival in modern times is a result of Zionist colonizations. Beginning with the village of Rosh Pinna (Hebrew: "cornerstone") in 1882, a string of settlements was set up; these proved to be key bargaining points in the inclusion of all Galilee in the British mandate (1920).

Modern agricultural development in the Negev began with three kibbutzim (collective settlements) in 1943; others were founded just after World War II, when the first large-scale irrigation projects were initiated. After the creation of the State of Israel (1948), the importance of development of this large portion of the country was realized. Under the National Water Plan pipelines and conduits bring water from northern and central Israel to the northwestern Negev, which has almost 400,000 ac (more than 160,000 ha) of fertile loess soils. Irrigation, combined with the area's year-round sunlight, produces fine crops of grain, fodder, fruits, and vegetables. Double-cropping is not uncommon.

Modern settlement of the Plain of Sharon was undertaken as part of the Zionist movement to resettle the agricultural lands of Palestine. The first settlement (1890) was at Hadera. The red sandy soils (hamra) of the Sharon were particularly suited for citrus fruits; the first orchard was planted at Hadera in 1894. With the acquisition of further tracts of land, new settlements were set up, and the acreage under citrus and mixed crops, especially truck crops, increased considerably. About a third of the agricultural area is now devoted to citrus farming; the rest mostly to fodder, cotton, and vegetables. Viticulture is practiced in the north, while poultry raising has become a specialty in the south. Vineyards cover the Tanninim River valley.

By the early 1930s, the Sharon had become the most densely settled area of Jewish Palestine. This was recognized by the plans for partition of the country drawn up by Great Britain (1937, 1938) and the United Nations (1947), each of which envisaged the Plain of Sharon as the core area of any proposed Jewish state.



Torah predicts, that in land of Israel Jews will be victorious over much stronger enemies:

8 And five of you shall chase an hundred

And this again happaned. 5 million Jews defeated 70 million Egyptians + 20 million Syrians + 6 million Jordanians + 4 million Palestinians = 100 million.

[ Last edited by  Nick_Perelman at 29-5-2006 04:09 AM ]

"The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell."

__________________________________________________

"Jews throughout all generations yearned to grace the sacred soil of the Holy Land and to live there. However, their sole purpose was to fulfill the commandments dependent upon the land and to absorb Its holiness. Never, G-d forbid, did they have any nationalist or sovereign intent whatsoever which, as mentioned above, is forbidden to us. Indeed, also here in the Holy Land, our fathers lived in neighborly harmony with the Palestinian residents of the land, helping one another, to mutual benefit."

____________________________________________________


"Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people."




:http://www.realnews247.com/jews_against_zionism.htm

Debmey

Notice something here. Nick provided scriptures references while all kennkidi coiuld provide only claims with no scriptural back up. No where is scriptures does it support what he posted.

The problem is, Muslims are so blind that they failed to see prophecy fillment in scripture and were put to shame. Stop being blind Kennkid, you have been away from God enough, its time to turn back and obey God's will.

Sephiroth

by KENNKID   

"The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell."

Here's fault in Muslim logic. ;)

Muhammad tried to establish himself as Messiah - using contents like a Messiah MUST born from Abraham's side of the family and MUST be a honorable person.

According to Jewish Tradition, a Messiah WILL come and lead the People of the Book back to the Promised Land. Muhammad came, proclaimed himself as a Messanger (Messiah is Messanger of God according to Jewish Tradition). He was welcomed by Jews FIRST, Christians SECOND and lastly by the Arabs.

One of the task of a Messiah is to bring back Jews back to the Promised Land and Al Quran stated that the Promised Land does belongs to Jews and a Messiah WILL bring them back. Islam DID kick Persians and Greek out of that Land and Jews did enter and make it their own.

Now, IF Muslims now state that the Promised Land is not belong to Jews and that Jews CANNOT make sovertiny ANYWHERE in the World (which is UNFAIR), that means, that Muslims themselves REJECTED Muhammad as Messanger of God, since role of a Messanger (Messiah) IS to bring the Chosen People back to Israel.

The funny thing here is, it is Muslims who denies Muhammad's status as a Messanger by denying Jews' right over the Promised Land and it is Jews who fights for Muhammad's status as a Messanger by claiming that the Prophecy of a Messiah had been fullfilled. Hmph ... God has a Sense of Humor.

And besides, those Jewish people who still thinks that Jews shouldn't have a soverity of its own, problem can be solved easily by giving the Promised Land to the United Nation and allow them to govern it while Jews still lives in it. Right now, America does that by providing protection, economy support and such.

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 29-5-2006 09:07 AM
by KENNKID   

"The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land  ...

Read what I pasted and the link again piroth... they are the words of an anti-Zionist Jewish Rabbi

Originally posted by Debmey at 29-5-2006 09:06 AM
Notice something here. Nick provided scriptures references while all kennkidi coiuld provide only claims with no scriptural back up. No where is scriptures does it support what he posted.

The p ...

Ask the Jewish rabbi


Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta.

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called  "State of Israel"  is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.

Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah.

Unfortunately,  due to many undesirable factors, the view of Torah-true Jewry has been concealed from the general public.

We, the staff at www.jewsnotzionists.org  are delighted that with the advance in media technology a substantial benefit to researchers, students, and the general public has been made available. We are elated at the advantage which the internet provides  for the presentation of and accessibility to a position so widely held yet so deliberately ignored by many a Zionist-inclined medium.

It is our hope that the information presented on this site will be of benefit to all and that we soon merit the peaceful dismantlement of the so-called "State of Israel" and that Jewish-Muslim brotherhood be restored as prior to the arrival of the Zionist scheme on the global scene.


:http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 29-5-2006 10:05 AM ]

Sephiroth

by KENNKID   

Read what I pasted and the link again piroth... they are the words of an anti-Zionist Jewish Rabbi

You only know cut and paste links. ;)

Fact - Muslims deny Muhammad's status as Messanger/Messiah BY denying Jews their rights to return to the Promised Land. No cut and paste going to deny that fact. :no:

Fuzzman

Thank you Green Frog for those really scenic pictures of Israel today. I agree that there is no stopping advanced technology for creating beauty from waste. Israelis like any other races too have common desires and dreams of a comfortable homeland. Let me assure you that I agree that Jews have a right to exist, built families, pray safely in synagogues, run businesses and most importantly intergrate with the surrounding culture and communities, but definately not in anyway related to Zionism. Astonishing for I remember those pictures were remarkably the very same you had posted in the old already deleted "The True Land of Milk and Honey" thread of mine.

Beforehand many thanks going out to Debmey, Sephy and Kennkid for their posts. Now I must insist upon you to provide me an answer for this already "stating-to-nag" question to which I hope Debmey will assist. This question is pivotal in ascertaining the true rights of Zionism. For your answer shall I wait and best wishes to you green frog.

The question:  Where was the first choice made by the Father of Zionism for the state of Israel?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 29-5-2006 10:02 AM ]

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 29-5-2006 09:54 AM
by KENNKID   

Read what I pasted and the link again piroth... they are the words of an anti-Zionist Jewish Rabbi

You only know cut and paste links. ;)

Fact - Muslims deny Muhammad's stat ...

Yeah, says the Zionist Hindu called piroth ;)

Now we shall await the Singaporean Zionist's response to Fuzz's question..



[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 29-5-2006 10:10 AM ]

Fuzzman

Kennkid has put up a very good link for the anti-Zionism stand by Jews. Strangely enough I do not see Sephy showing disdain for Nick's cut and paste? I hope Sephy will not bring out issues concerning Prophet Muhammad in this thread again. If Sephy understands this thread, Sephy will rightfully know that this thread is purely meant for the discussion on the status of present day Israel being a creation from either the will of God or Man.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Originally posted by KENNKID at 29-5-2006 09:50 AM



Ask the Jewish rabbi


Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta.

...

what good is a jewish rabbi if he cannot even back himself up wuth scritures?

Debmey

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 29-5-2006 09:59 AM

The question:  Where was the first choice made by the Father of Zionism for the state of Israel?

Do you know where is Mt.Zion?
If Zionism does talk about Israel, it isn't Zionism anymore.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by KENNKID at 29-5-2006 10:07 AM
Yeah, says the Zionist Hindu called piroth ;) Now we shall await the Singaporean Zionist's response to Fuzz's question..

Thank you Kennkid for coming alive in this thread. I truly appreaciate sharing the frontline view with you. Actually the Singaporean Zionist view is very much welcomed although we are actually out fishing for an answer from a very remarkable and very capable greenfrog. I will show you that even green frogs can jump like deepsea marlins when they get hooked the right way. Best wishes Kennkid.

ARI FUZZMAN