What is the right way of discussing with another fellow sentient being?

I'm only a human being lack of wisdom and only wishes to share my thoughts. Hence, if you do disagree please be kind enough to let me know. Thanks.

In Buddhism we're taught on respecting others view but do we really practice it. Each of us interprete the dharma differently because we experience life differently, the language we use, our age, etc. For instance, I added two teaspoon of sugar into the coffee and I gave both cup of coffee to Ali and Ah Chong. Ali think it's very sweet but Ah Chong think the sweetness is just perfect. So, is it too sweet? When we disagree on something we'll just have to respect our differences.

I got this phrase from a Buddhist book:
ADMONISHING OTHERS

One who is brought to admonish another must realize herself or himself five qualities before doing so. [he or she must intend] thus: "In due season will I speak, not out of season. In truth will I speak, not in falsehood. Gently will I speak, not harshly. To one's profit will I speak, not to one's loss. With kindly intent will I speak, not in anger."

Thus, if we think we're right then we should speak kindly to that individual. We're here to learn from each other.

Another story I wish to share too. It's about Humility which I think it's important principle that each of us should practice while using this forum.

Humility

The lion was proud of his mastery of the animal kingdom. One day he decided to make sure all the other animals knew he was the king of the jungle. He was so confident that he by-passed the smaller animals and went straight to the bear. "Who is the king of the jungle?" the lion asked. The bear replied, "Why you are, of course" The lion gave a mighty roar of approval. Next he asked the tiger, "Who is the king of the jungle?" The tiger quickly responded, "Everyone knows that you are, mighty lion " Next on the list was the elephant. The lion faced the elephant and addressed his question, "Who is the king of the jungle?" The elephant immediately grabbed the lion with his trunk, whirled him around in the air five or six times and slammed him into a tree. Then he pounded him onto the ground several times, dunked him under water in a nearby lake, and finally dumped him out on the shore. The lion--beaten, bruised, and battered--struggled to his feet. He looked at the elephant through sad and bloody eyes and said, "Look, just because you don't know the answer is no reason for to get mean about it!"


Lastly, I found this guidelines very useful and I wish to share with fellow forumners.

Source: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?act=SR&f=21
Guidelines & Rules

Sephiroth

Humility

The lion was proud of his mastery of the animal kingdom. One day he decided to make sure all the other animals knew he was the king of the jungle. He was so confident that he by-passed the smaller animals and went straight to the bear. "Who is the king of the jungle?" the lion asked. The bear replied, "Why you are, of course" The lion gave a mighty roar of approval. Next he asked the tiger, "Who is the king of the jungle?" The tiger quickly responded, "Everyone knows that you are, mighty lion " Next on the list was the elephant. The lion faced the elephant and addressed his question, "Who is the king of the jungle?" The elephant immediately grabbed the lion with his trunk, whirled him around in the air five or six times and slammed him into a tree. Then he pounded him onto the ground several times, dunked him under water in a nearby lake, and finally dumped him out on the shore. The lion--beaten, bruised, and battered--struggled to his feet. He looked at the elephant through sad and bloody eyes and said, "Look, just because you don't know the answer is no reason for to get mean about it!"

:clap: :lol

It should serve as remind also that just because one hold a view which he thinks is superior, he shouldn't go and challenge others to accept it.

ariyamusafir

That which is important, is not who's view but about truth. What is of importance is the truth, not someone's concepts, which might be inaccurate.

Sephiroth

by ariyamusafir

That which is important, is not who's view but about truth. What is of importance is the truth, not someone's concepts, which might be inaccurate.

In order to understand the truth others speak, you must know what is the concept by which others are basic it from.

If you seek the truth but do not know how one comes to such conclusion, it is like telling someone to believe you when they have no reason to do so.

If you SAY you speak the truth, then you should be able to show your concept from which you derive your truth from. If you cannot show your concept but ask others to believe you, then I do not see why anyone should believe you.

And finally, you must be able to defend your concept of truth as well. Anyone who unable to defend his concept is either someone who is lied, or derive the concept from someone else or he himself not capable of understanding it but still push it to others by stating it is truth.

Truth is what you think you see, NOT what you expect others to see. If you want to show the Truth, show us what you see.

TRUTH..............haha......:bgrin:

Boleh dibeli dgn $$$$$$.

Berapakah pesalah yg telah pun dilepaskan dengan menggunakan $$$$.
Walaupun kita tahu the TRUTH but the truth boleh dibeli dengan $$$$.

So mana ada perkataan untuk TRUTH in this world lagi???

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 27-8-2004 14:25:
by ariyamusafir

That which is important, is not who's view but about truth. What is of importance is the truth, not someone's concepts, which might be inaccurate.

In order to underst ...

What is important is not the concepts and theories. What is important is that one knows the truth. Concepts might be wrong and theories too.

http://www.tipitaka.net/ebooks/p ... r%20a%20Philosophy?

Is Buddhism a Theory or a Philosophy?
The enlightenment of the Buddha is not a product of mere intellect.

During the time of the Buddha there were many learned men in India who pursued knowledge simply for its own sake. These people were full of theoretical knowledge. Indeed, some of them went from city to city challenging anyone to a debate and their greatest thrill was to defeat an opponent in such verbal combats. But the Buddha said that such people were no nearer to the realization of the truth because in spite of their cleverness and knowledge they did not have true wisdom to overcome greed, hatred and delusion. In fact, these people were often proud and arrogant. Their egoistic concepts disturbed the religious atmosphere.

According to the Buddha, one must first seek to understand one's own mind. This was to be done through concentration which gives one a profound inner wisdom or realization. And this insight is to be gained not by philosophical argument or worldly knowledge but by the silent realization of the illusion of the Self.

Buddhism is a righteous way of life for the peace and happiness of every living being. It is a method to get rid of miseries and to find liberation. The Teachings of the Buddha are not limited to one nation or race. It is neither a creed nor a mere faith. It is a Teaching for the entire universe. It is a Teaching for all time. Its objectives are selfless service, good-will, peace, salvation and deliverance from suffering.

Salvation in Buddhism is an individual affair. You have to save yourself just as you have to eat, drink and sleep by yourself. The advice rendered by the Buddha points the Way to liberation; but His advice was never intended to be taken as a theory or philosophy. When He was questioned as to what theory He propounded, the Buddha replied that He preached no theories and whatever he did preach was a result of His own experience. Thus His Teaching does not offer any theory. Theory cannot bring one nearer to spiritual perfection. Theories are the very fetters that bind the mind and impede spiritual progress. The Buddha said, 'Wise men give no credence to passing theories. They are past believing everything they see and hear.'

Theories are product of the intellect and the Buddha understood the limitations of the human intellect. He taught that enlightenment is not a product of mere intellect. One cannot achieve emancipation by taking an intellectual course. This statement may seem irrational but it is true. Intellectuals tend to spend too much of their valuable time in study, critical analysis and debate. They usually have little or no time for practice.

A great thinker (philosopher, scientist, metaphysician, etc.) can also turn out to be an intelligent fool. He may be an intellectual giant endowed with the power to perceive ideas quickly and to express thoughts clearly. But if he pays no attention to his action and their consequences, and if he is only bent on fulfilling his own longings and inclinations at any cost then, according to the Buddha, he is an intellectual fool, a man of inferior intelligence. Such a person will indeed hinder his won spiritual progress.

The Buddha's Teaching contains practical wisdom that cannot be limited to theory or to philosophy because philosophy deals mainly with knowledge but it is not concerned with translating the knowledge into day-to-day practices.

Buddhism lays special emphasis on practice and realization. The philosopher sees the miseries and disappointments of life but, unlike the Buddha, he offers no practical solution to overcome our frustrations which are part of the unsatisfactory nature of life. The philosopher merely pushes his thoughts to dead ends. Philosophy is useful because it has enriched our intellectual imagination and diminished dogmatic assurance which closes the mind to further progress. To that extent, Buddhism values philosophy, but it has failed to quench spiritual thirst.

Remember that the chief aim of a Buddhist is to attain purity and enlightenment. Enlightenment vanquishes ignorance which is the root of birth and death. However, this vanquishing of ignorance cannot be achieved except by the exercise of one's confidence. All other attempts, especially mere intellectual attempts are not very effective. This is why the Buddha concluded: 'These [metaphysical]questions are not calculated to profit; they are not concerned with the Dhamma; they do not lead to right conduct, or to detachment, or to purification from lusts, or to quietude, or to a calm heart, or to real knowledge, or to higher insight, or to Nibbana.' (Malunkyaputta Sutta _ Majjhima Nikaya) In place of metaphysical speculation, the Buddha was more concerned with teaching a practical understanding of the Four Noble Truths that he discovered: what Suffering is: what the origin of Suffering is; what the cessation of Suffering is; how to overcome Suffering and realize final Salvation. These Truths are all practical matters to be fully understood and realized by anyone who really experiences emancipation.

Enlightenment is the dispelling of ignorance; it is the ideal of the Buddhist life. We can now clearly see that enlightenment is not an act of the intellect. Mere speculation has something alien to it and does not come so intimately into contact with life. This is why the Buddha placed great emphasis on personal experience. Meditation is a practical scientific system to verify the Truth that comes through personal experience. Through meditation, the will tries to transcend the condition it has put on itself, and this is the awakening of consciousness. Metaphysics merely ties us down in a tangled and matted mass of thoughts and words.

[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 28-8-2004 at 12:28 AM ]

ariyamusafir

http://www.tipitaka.net/ebooks/p ... %20Ultimate%20Truth

The Ultimate Truth
The Ultimate Truth can be found in the Teaching of the Buddhism.

Buddhism recognizes two kinds of Truth. The apparent conventional truth and the real or ultimate Truth. The ultimate Truth can be realized only through meditation, and not theorizing or speculating.

The Buddha's Teaching is the Ultimate Truth of the world. Buddhism, however, is not a revealed or an organized religion. It is the first example of the purely scientific approach applied to questions concerning the ultimate nature of existence. This timeless Teaching was discovered by the Buddha Himself without the help of any divine agency. This same teaching is strong enough to face any challenge without changing the basic principles of the doctrine. Any religion that is forced to change or adjust its original Teachings to suit the modern world, is a religion that has no firm foundation and no ultimate truth in it. Buddhism can maintain the Truth of the original Teaching of the Master even under the difficult conditions prevailing in the modern world. The Buddha did not introduce certain personal or worldly practices which have no connection with morality or religious observances. To the Buddha, such practices have no religious value. We must make the distinction between what the Buddha taught and what people preach and practise in the name of Buddhism.

Every religion consists of not only the teachings of the founder of that religion but also the rites and ceremonies which have grown up around the basic core of the teachings. These rituals and ceremonies have their origins in the cultural practices of the people who accepted the religion. Usually the founders of the great religions do not lay down precise rules about the rituals to be observed. But religious leaders who come after them formalize the religion and set up exacting codes of behavior which the followers are not allowed to deviated from.

Even the religion which we call 'Buddhism' is very different in its external practices from what the Buddha and His early followers carried out. Centuries of cultural and environmental influence have made Burmese, Thai, Chinese, Tibetan, Sri Lankan and Japanese Buddhism different. But these practices are not in conflict, because the Buddha taught that while the Truth remains absolute, the physical manifestation of this truth can differ according to the way of life of those who profess it.

A few hundred years after His passing away, the disciples of the Buddha organized a religion around the Teachings of the Master. While organizing the religion, they incorporated, among other concepts and beliefs, various types of miracles, mysticism, fortune-telling, charms, talismans, mantras, prayers and many rites and rituals that were not found in the original Teaching. When these extraneous religious beliefs and practices were introduced, many people neglected to develop the most important practices found in the original Teaching; self-discipline, self-restraint, cultivation of morality and spiritual development. Instead of practicing the original Teaching, they gave more of their attention and effort to self-protection from evil spirits and sought after prosperity or good luck. Gradually, people began to lose interest in the original Teachings and became more interested in discovering ways and means of getting rid of the so-called misfortunes or bad influences of stars, black magic, and sickness. In this manner, through time the religious practices and beliefs degenerated, being confined to worldly pursuits. Even today, many people believe that they can get rid of their difficulties through the influence of external powers. People still cling to this belief: hence they neglect to cultivate the strength of their will-power, intelligence, understanding and other related human qualities. In other words, people started to abuse their human intelligence by following those beliefs and practices in the name of Buddhism. They also polluted the purity of the Buddha's message.

Thus the modern religion we see in many countries is the product of normal human beings living in a country and adjusting to various social and cultural environments. However, Buddhism as a religion did not begin as a superworldly system that came down from heaven. Rather it was born and evolved through a long historical process. In its process of evolution, many people slowly moved away from the original Teachings of the founder and started different new schools or sects. All the other existing religions also face the same situation.

One should not come to a hasty conclusion either by judging the validity of a religion or by condemning the religion simply by observing what people perform through their blind faith in the name of that religion. To understand the real nature of a religion one must study and investigate the original Teachings of the founder of that religion.

In the face of the profusion of ideas and practices which were later developments, it is useful for us to return to the positive and timeless Dhamma taught by the Buddha. Whatever people believe and practise in the name of Buddhism the basic Teachings of the Buddha still exist in the original Buddhist texts.

[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 28-8-2004 at 12:29 AM ]

Sephiroth

by ariyamusafir

What is important is not the concepts and theories. What is important is that one knows the truth. Concepts might be wrong and theories too.

That is why you will never achieve enlightnment. ;)
You choose to believe in what others says without thinking.

How do you know what is written in a piece of paper and what told by others as truth?

What experiments have you conducted to see whether what others says are truth or false?

Do you understand the concept from what they derive their answers from? They are not Gods for having wisdom since birth, they are humans like you and their wisdom MUST come from somewhere. Did you find out where that wisdom comes from or just take whatever they say because it makes sense?

Don't be a Puppet ... That is not Buddhist ways. Gautama Buddha was not a Puppet to Fate, other wise he could have died like millions of others have also.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 28-8-2004 08:56:
by ariyamusafir

What is important is not the concepts and theories. What is important is that one knows the truth. Concepts might be wrong and theories too.

That is why you will neve ...

It is not believe in others without thinking. Are you saying that you are wiser then the buddha??? The buddha did mention in one of the sutta I have read before, that don't trust our intelligence until we have reach certain stage, not sure already what that stage is. Also, about the theories issue, that was taught by the buddha, not just mere mention by some others. If what others say such as when you tried to force me into believeing yours, I will have to investigate its validity first before hand. Even the buddha also teaches us o understand rather then just blind faith. The above quote was not just someone making statement but someone explaining about the theories issue with respect to what the buddha had taught. Why I believe most of it??? Because in one of the sutta, the buddha did mention about not trusting our intelligence until we have reach a stage in which I not so remember what stage it is. I will paste it out here when I go back after 07/09.

After reading sutta and investigating it, it is quite true. Many of us are still living in delusion, with attachement and many more. What we due thought we understand and what we thought that we know as true might be the opposite. Why, because we are still living in delusion. That is why in one of the sutta which the buddha told not to trust it until we have achieve a stage which I will post later. Theories are man made to understand certain things which we see which might be accurate up to a certain degree but not 100% because we have not considered other factors. Take for example fluid mechanics, In fluid, we will have many concepts such as ideal flow and many more but that is not the case for real fluids because we are introduing concepts to simplify our calculation, which the concept is not 100% accurate though the result is reasonably acceptable. Some are not even close to the value but only approximate. Some might be inaccurate due to lack of knowledge or understanding of what is really happening in the fluid. Some is not so accurate such as when we regard fluid as a continuum, then pressure and others may be assumed constant at a point but that is not 100% true. Theories are man made to understand what we do not really know. Theories are made to predict or make hypothesis out of what we can observe and calculation which might not be accurate at all. In scientific history, many theories have been abandon due to later findings.

The above example is just an anology of the theories and concepts. Buddhism is not concern about the theories and concepts which might not be accurate but is concern with truth.

[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 28-8-2004 at 11:40 AM ]

Sephiroth

by ariyamusafir

It is not believe in others without thinking. Are you saying that you are wiser then the buddha??? The buddha did mention in one of the sutta I have read before, that don't trust our intelligence until we have reach certain stage, not sure already what that stage is.

I may not be wiser than Buddha since I have never meet nor have the previlage and honor to sit and talk with him.

Question now is ... WHY should I trust you? You are asking me to believe something you read. I have not read anything like what you describe and I have no reason to believe you.

And No, you have no reason to believe me either, which is fine. Till a proof is given or till discussion comes to a conclusion, I will not make any assumptions based on anyone, especially someone who I don't trust.

Also, about the theories issue, that was taught by the buddha, not just mere mention by some others. If what others say such as when you tried to force me into believeing yours, I will have to investigate its validity first before hand.

No one forcing anyone to believe in me. Take what you wish, leave what you do not like. That's my policy.

When I discuss, what I discuss is my views. IF others find my views to be interesting, they are welcome to discuss it with their own views. This way, I attend to find different points of the perspective in order to get the overall picture. That is my motive.

For me, discussing is like looking at a very large mountain from one directions. An ignorant person will say his side is the truth side and all others are false, or maybe his side is superior to others and everyone should be following him.

A wise one will understand his side of the mountain very well - its fauna and flora, its beauty and majesty and such and carries it in his heart. When he meets fellow who have seen the same mountain from a different view and carries with him the same essence he is carrying. They will discuss and even argue but in the end, both essence will form a new perspective where the mountain will become a 2D shape (with two dimensions of two travellers combine together).  

Both will go on their own way and find others with this new dimension and the process will continue. Enlightnment can achieve ONLY when one have seen the mountain in all angles, understood its majesty and felt its beauty. Till then, he will not achieve Enlightnment.

Even the buddha also teaches us o understand rather then just blind faith. The above quote was not just someone making statement but someone explaining about the theories issue with respect to what the buddha had taught. Why I believe most of it??? Because in one of the sutta, the buddha did mention about not trusting our intelligence until we have reach a stage in which I not so remember what stage it is. I will paste it out here when I go back after 07/09.  

Hmph ... somehow, I do not trust you. ;)

Do you know why? Because Gautama Buddha himself was a human being yet he went and achieve Enlightnment by his own strenght, determination and intelligence.

I do not believe that Buddha will tell others not to follow his steps (including relying on intelligence) while he himself have done it. :no:

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 28-8-2004 11:51:
by ariyamusafir

It is not believe in others without thinking. Are you saying that you are wiser then the buddha??? The buddha did mention in one of the sutta I have read before, that  ...

You had already tried forcing me to believe your views at one thread remember. Nevermind. Tell you what. As you know that sutta are the saying of the buddha. Try you go and search for the "Sutta on 42 Section" read it and see it yourself. I don't need you to trust me in my life. I have said something, believe it or not it is up to you. Read it and see it for yourself. In buddhism, it is come and see it for yourself, not come and believe. Need not you too believe me. Just see it yourself before you make any remarks.

ariyamusafir

Warning to all, Please read the notice I have posted. No PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Sephiroth

by ariyamusafir

You had already tried forcing me to believe your views at one thread remember.  

You feel that I'm forcing you because your mind is closed. You are not willing to accept any other views other than your own. No one is forcing you, it is your own mind which is trying to free itself.

Nevermind. Tell you what. As you know that sutta are the saying of the buddha. Try you go and search for the "Sutta on 42 Section" read it and see it yourself.  

Wrong ... he who claims must summit his proof. That is the "Right Understanding" as far as I know. You claim it, you proof it. :no:

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 30-8-2004 08:21:
by ariyamusafir

You had already tried forcing me to believe your views at one thread remember.  

You feel that I'm forcing you because your mind is closed. You are not willing to acce ...

Sephiroth spehiroth. First of all, you trying to force me when you said that I am arrogant just because I have not accept your view because I Have yet to investigate if your claims are true. It is not I am not willing to learn new things but rather, it is you who thinks that you are too smart and those which you do not like such as me is like kafir like that. Nevermind.

Also, I have proven my claim when I have taken the article from a buddhist site with the link and you say you do not believe it. I have read the sutta of 42 section and since you want proof, I ask you to go search for the sutta of 42 section, for which is said by the buddha for the buddha's words are true to read it and see it for yourself if the buddha had said those words, thus what I said is it in contradiction with the buddha's in that sutta regarding the issue mentioned. If you want, I can copy the whole sutta and paste it in this forum if you want, however, that must be after 07 Sept as I am out station and the sutta is in my house. If I take time to copy and paste it here, I am not sure what will you be saying next.