common sense...

Duriant

anybody wanna talk about Noam Chomsky and his `common sense' thing?

being the most quoted intellectual in the world I'm sure he is worth considering.

his theory about languange as biological is very interesting...

maybe we can look into the epistemology of Descartes, spinoza, kant etc etc as comparisons.

or muslims such as al-kindi, al-Farabi, al-Ghazali, Ibn Rushd, mulla sadra... or even the contemporaries like Iqbal and Syed Naquib alAttas which said that pure reason, sense-perception and intuition are organically related.

anybody?

Note: I am not well verse in the subject though.

seribulan

not well verse gak...common sense ni ada yg kaitkan dgn 'akal yg sihat'...

yg terbaca perkara menarik ttg ni...kat Wiki...

1) Dua org philosopher G. E. Moore,  and  Thomas Reid, are famous for appealing to common sense to refute skepticism.

2) Bagaimnapun, common sense is sometimes regarded as an impediment to abstract and even logical thinking. This is especially the case in mathematics and physics, where human intuition often conflicts with provably correct or experimentally verified results. Nih kena mintak pakar Math ngan fizik utk mengesahkannya...

3) Definisi Albert Einstein lak: "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

mbhcsf

oh yeah  the TGG was his theory in explaining language development  but he had a hard time debating this with Paiget though- the other one telling him that the cognitive should preceed the "LAD"- oh yead got to know what is LAD- language Acquistion Device means- i think Seribulan would be familiar - bulan i have forgotten those theories ...may be you ''ll have more access on this  matter.

seribulan

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 29-11-2005 12:35 AM
oh yeah  the TGG was his theory in explaining language development  but he had a hard time debating this with Paiget though- the other one telling him that the cognitive should preceed the "LA ...

transformational-generative grammar :cak:

frankly speaking, mb...I hate people who call on others to explain about think...try
n look it up, my dear:cak:

and could we get back to the topic...common sense...

mbhcsf

yeah me too really  this theries  are  just theories right ? and you know what Bulan , now they come up with " model" kan?  dah tak boleh nak explain macam mana then a model - yg bukan theory pun ..haah and things get very " messykan? actually no one really knows kan Bulan - hahah ..i pun malas nak citer pasal Polish ni - sebab kat SOAS- i thin kan Bulan depa stress  more on functional grammar rather then Chomsky ni my lecturer said -
lagipun  piaget cakap - you  tak boleh nak labelkan " LAD" ni satu benda just becoz you tak tahu apa - ...kan?

seribulan

are we talking about common sense or what here..

you know how I hate Linguistics...chomsky...skinner...piaget...still gave me
nightmares...just want to forget them like you have done, dearie...

okay...chomsky n common sense...let see what do we have here...

seribulan

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 29-11-2005 12:50 AM
you  tak boleh nak labelkan " LAD" ni satu benda just becoz you tak tahu apa - ...kan?  

Language acquisition Device? yup...sorry but been along time I go thru them
anymore...I'm more into lit now...no need for linguistics...;)

mbhcsf

yeah - i hate them too...

seribulan

i hate them...i want to forget about them all...
the Universal grammar...tabula rasa...Pavlov...
whatever-u-chamacalit...but not that ignorant, dearie...

Duriant

Common sense - a form of evidence that is based on conventional wisdom, tradition, or someone’s personal philosophy or perspective. But it is hard to judge the validity and reliability of common sense because little supporting evidence is involved. Most people judge the validity and reliability of common sense by the person citing common sense as the basis for a decision. However, common sense can be a very biased approach to decision making.

Alsa means sound practical judgment, but common sense sometimes is not so common; say "fortunately she had the good sense to run away.."

The term common sense also describes beliefs or propositions that seem, to most people, to be prudent and of sound judgment, without dependence upon esoteric (personal) knowledge. These beliefs and propositions are sometimes developed after having studied, or conducted, empirical research (by sense-perception, experience)  

Common sense reasoning - reasoning on the basis of common knowledge, as opposed to purely logical reasoning, or reasoning that depends solely on the meanings of words. A purely logical inference might be from: If it is Monday, Joe is in KL and it is Monday so Joe is in KL. An example of common sense reasoning might be the inference that if someone asks for a pen it is because they want to write something, and not to poke somebody’s eyes.

Are our beliefs about the world absolutely certain? Some would say no, especially the postmodern thinking of no-absolute truth. G E Moore says that at least some of our beliefs about the world are absolutely certain. He argues that these beliefs are common sense.

On personal basis - what is common to me makes sense!

Duriant

Originally posted by seribulan at 29-11-2005 12:53 AM
are we talking about common sense or what here..

you know how I hate Linguistics...chomsky...skinner...piaget...still gave me
nightmares...just want to forget them like you have done, dearie... ...

we may talk about common sense.
or linguistics (ignore you may)

or epistemology (and ontology)... which I think got interesting connection with regards to Chomsky's theory that language is human's fitrah. Its implanted by God within us... biologically. So its about natural science. Language is a natural thing within us,  not without such as cultural or societal as we commonly believe. We may not be a clean slate after all on birth.

Remember how God teaches human about `names' (the test which malaikat failed)  and the kalam in Surah al-Alaq?

Chomsky may be right then.

seribulan

so kale in Malay...apa pengertian atau istilah paling tepat utk 'common sense' ni
ek...ada tak satu word yg spesifik?

pertimbangan sewajarnya?
akal yg logik? logika akal?

sometimes when u try to translate, u cannot encompass actually the whole meaning
u want to put across...

Remy_3D

common sense = dalam bahasa melayu ek, mcm hmm benda yang boleh diterima walaupun takde fakta, hmmm aahhh, maybe pemikiran biasa kot

mbhcsf

pendapat umum - tanggapan umum- kelaziman - logik akal - well..ni kena ring up DBP -
sudah semestinya hasil terjemahan akan membawa masalah pentafisran sematik tu mmg pun- sebab itu digalakkan mengusasi  bhs lain- sebab direct translation  hanya berlaku dalam diri penuturs bhs itu dan buku dia baca terus.

[ Last edited by mbhcsf at 30-11-2005 06:06 PM ]

common sense ni macam 'by default' la kot, to me

for example, ur boss said he'll be on leave for 3 days starting today (wednesday). technically/ 'common sense' speaking,
he'll be on leave till friday. so, there is no point asking 'are u coming this friday or not' .. coz 'common sense' already answered that.

'lame' example, i know... im out of ideas now..hehe

seribulan

Originally posted by beaulavie at 1-12-2005 09:55 AM
common sense ni macam 'by default' la kot, to me

for example, ur boss said he'll be on leave for 3 days starting today (wednesday). technically/ 'common sense' speaking,
he'll be on leave ti ...

nope...I think urs quite a good one...


common sense ni boleh ke didapati secara otomatik? unconsciously...:hmm:

fleurzsa

Hmmm Chomsky ni spt ringing the bell pula.... O ya, semasa I mengambil subjek Language & Linguistic dulu... Tidak berapa nak study so dpt la C- ....

I sentuh common sense secara kasar dahulu.  

Semua org berfikir, bagaimana pun kebanyakan org menggunakan common sense semasa menjalani kehidupan harian.

Secara kasar aspek  utama common sense/ akal waras melibatkan:

-  Perulangan - salah satu sifat minda kita, jika terdengar sesuatu idea lebih drp 3 kali, maka hal itu dianggap lebih benar drp apa yg didengar sekali shj.  Perulangan menguasai minda kita dan mempengaruhi cara bagaimana minda kita memproses apa yg didengar.

- Persepsi -  Pemikiran sering dikongkong oleh apa yg dilihat oleh mata (persepsi).  Warna yg cerah dan garang membuat kita percaya bhw benda itu lebih penting drp apa2 yg berwarna  lembut atau pudar.  Org yg bertubuh tinggi dan tegap dianggap paling penting di dlm sesuatu majlis.

- Bias - common sense akan tunduk kpd niat dan kepentingan peribadi.  Idea2 dan maklumat yg diterima oleh minda dipengaruhi dgn niat dan kepentingan peribadi.

- Tak seimbang - Cth.  Sekiranya terdpt sebakul rambutan, rambutan pertama dimakan adalah berulat, minda akan memutuskan semua rambutan dlm bakul berulat belaka.  Maka rambutan yg sebiji itu lebih penting drp rambutan yg sebakul.  Kenyataan bhw kebanyakan rambutan dlm bakul tidak berulat tidak dpt menghapuskan kepentingan yg sudah tercipta.  Sekali kepentingan itu tercipta, ia akan kekal dlm minda.

- Pengalaman peribadi - dipengaruhi dgn kuat oleh pengalaman peribadi, bukan pengalaman dr sumber2 lain.  Apa yg kita alami adalah lebih benar drp pengalaman org lain.

- Sempurna & ekstrim - melihat sesuatu secara sempurna, tidak ada kekecualian.  Suka melihat sesuatu dr sudut yg ekstrim , tiada pertengahan.

IMO common sense shj tidak boleh menghasilkan pandangan/idea yg bermutu.

Boleh bincang sebab tak tentu valid lagi tu...

[ Last edited by fleurzsa at 12-12-2005 12:12 PM ]

seribulan

more info...

Various questions might be raised in a meta-philosophical discussion of common sense:

What is common sense? Supposing that a precise characterization of it cannot be given, does that mean appeal to common sense is off-limits in philosophy?

Why should we care whether a belief is a matter of common sense or not? Under what circumstances, if any, is it permissible to advocate a view that seems to run contrary to common sense?

Should considerations of common sense play any decisive role in philosophy? If not common sense, then should any other similar concept such as "intuition" play such a role?

In general, are there "philosophical starting points", and if so, how might we characterize them? Supposing that there are no beliefs we are willing to hold come what may, are there some we ought to hold more stubbornly at least?

Duriant

Originally posted by seribulan at 7-12-2005 05:15 PM
more info...

Various questions might be raised in a meta-philosophical discussion of common sense:

What is common sense? Supposing that a precise characterization of it cannot be given, does that mean appeal to common sense is off-limits in philosophy?

Why should we care whether a belief is a matter of common sense or not? Under what circumstances, if any, is it permissible to advocate a view that seems to run contrary to common sense?

Should considerations of common sense play any decisive role in philosophy? If not common sense, then should any other similar concept such as "intuition" play such a role?

In general, are there "philosophical starting points", and if so, how might we characterize them? Supposing that there are no beliefs we are willing to hold come what may, are there some we ought to hold more stubbornly at least?

philosophy streches reason far beyond common sense, to the extent our sense becomes uncommon..;)

belief, reason (pure and practical as in Kant), sense-perception and intuition are questions of epistemology. Kant beliefs that faith (beliefs) and reason are distinct. Belief is beyond reason... ie we need no reason to believe. Therefore Kant suggested we made a jump (not a slow walk... heheh) from reason to belief. Mortime J Adler also said so. But Kierkegaard suggested that jumping is not enough... we need a huge leap! (must be tiring huh... heheh... got the feeling that those who believe are irrational lots).

Note: everytime I saw a katak I would surelyremember Kant (the Enlightenment man), Adler (the easy-to-understand American philosophist) and Keirkegaard (the religious existentialist).:siok:

anybody wanna talk about sense-perception then? Knowing through our senses, or experience?  some would called it empirical approach... a methode much revered in science?

Scientists just do not believe that we may know through that thing called `intuition'... through our heart.  But the majority of muslim epistemologist will affirm this, esp. the sufists. They will curse you to death if you don't. They believe knowledge gained this way (actually pumped into your heart by God, as in the case of revelation) is the best of knowledge... ilmu hakikat, makrifat, laduni.

If your common sense keeps on tingling.. ye ke... ye ke  reading that last para above, then I would say you are an ardent empiricist. But if you affirmed, then I would say you have actually made a jump ( or leap) into that domain of belief.... at least for now.

seribulan

Originally posted by Duriant at 7-12-2005 09:29 PM
anybody wanna talk about sense-perception then? Knowing through our senses, or experience?  some would called it empirical approach... a methode much revered in science?

Scientists just do not believe that we may know through that thing called `intuition'... through our heart.  But the majority of muslim epistemologist will affirm this, esp. the sufists. They will curse you to death if you don't. They believe knowledge gained this way (actually pumped into your heart by God, as in the case of revelation) is the best of knowledge... ilmu hakikat, makrifat, laduni.

If your common sense keeps on tingling.. ye ke... ye ke  reading that last para above, then I would say you are an ardent empiricist. But if you affirmed, then I would say you have actually made a jump ( or leap) into that domain of belief.... at least for now.  

:hmm:sense-perception...intuition...


how about premonition? or Mother's instinct...would these fall in this category, too?


we tend to view all these things pessimistically or negatively...but some things we just can't explain about them...
some people do follow their instinct...gut-feeling, we could say that...can't explain why, what, how...a bell ringing
somewhere in our mind, it seems like it...and usually there are some basis on that...for example when making
split-second decisions (usually pertaining choices)...putting  trust on other people...can't explain it...but sometimes
the bell, it seems, did ring loud and clear ...;)

[ Last edited by seribulan at 8-12-2005 09:02 AM ]