Islam perlu berubah - Irshad Manji

Decaffeinated

roblucci posted on 2-7-2013 12:55 AM
minum arak lepas tu mabuk bukannya perbuatan maksiat jadi jom pakat minum ramai2

makan babi maksiat tak?..

roblucci

Decaffeinated posted on 2-7-2013 01:06 AM
makan babi maksiat tak?..

makan babiq bukan maksiat dan juga minum arak bukannya maksiat

Decaffeinated

roblucci posted on 2-7-2013 12:55 AM
minum arak lepas tu mabuk bukannya perbuatan maksiat jadi jom pakat minum ramai2

perlu ka minum ramai2?...

DTECCONAN

kat Malaysia ni ada spesies yg kritikal thinking hanya memihak kpd mereka sahaja tetapi bila pegangan mereka dikritik mulalah meloncat2 sana sini tak boleh terima

cubalah kalau kritik agama dan pegangan org lain, mcm2 fatwa ada, siap jadi pembela agama lain pula

Decaffeinated

roblucci posted on 2-7-2013 01:08 AM
makan babiq bukan maksiat dan juga minum arak bukannya maksiat

ngesek (bukan pasangan suami isteri) dlm bilik maksiat tak?...

roblucci

Decaffeinated posted on 2-7-2013 01:09 AM
perlu ka minum ramai2?...

nak jadi golongan liberal atau tak nak?

Decaffeinated

roblucci posted on 2-7-2013 01:13 AM
nak jadi golongan liberal atau tak nak?

apa syarat nak dapat label liberal?

roblucci

Decaffeinated posted on 2-7-2013 01:14 AM
apa syarat nak dapat label liberal?

menjadi seorang Irsyad Manji

DTECCONAN

Lejen posted on 1-7-2013 10:06 AM
ok kita tengok pada saksinya.

dalam ayat 4, sesiapa yang menuduh zina terhadap perempuan mesti  ...

kalau suami sendiri yg nampak perlakua isteri dia, sudah tentulah sudah cukup dgn persaksian suami tersebut
takkan la suami nampak isteri tengah bermadu asmara dgn jantan lain dlm rumah, kena panggil org lain yg tgk
hilang akai ker apa?

bg wanita lain pula, sudah tetulah syarat lebih ketat, sbb org lain mana boleh senang2 masuk rumah org tu
guna akai la sikit

Decaffeinated

DTECCONAN posted on 2-7-2013 01:10 AM
kat Malaysia ni ada spesies yg kritikal thinking hanya memihak kpd mereka sahaja tetapi bila peganga ...

aku rasa dia bukan tak biasa dikritik tapi kenapa ban terus sedangkan ramai yang baca pun belum.... termasuk aku....

chazey

akubest posted on 1-7-2013 03:32 PM
pada pendapat aku buku irsyad manji tuh di bannedkan bukan pasei buku tu sesat...sebabnya rakyat mal ...

baru buku Dina Zaman 'I Am Muslim' itu pun sudah membuat ramai poremer CI panas bontot satu ketika dulu (padahal ramai yang mengeji itu tak baca buku itu pun), apatah lagi buku karya Irsyad Manji.

kakikuDibibirmu

kat Malaysia ni ada spesies yg hanya memihak kpd ugama mereka sahaja tetapi bila pegangan mereka dikritik mulalah meloncat2 sana sini tak boleh terima

Lejen

DTECCONAN posted on 2-7-2013 01:18 AM
kalau suami sendiri yg nampak perlakua isteri dia, sudah tentulah sudah cukup dgn persaksian suami ...

kau tak faham maksud aku.

maksud aku ada 2 undang-undang yang berlainan walaupun untuk para lelaki dan ada 2 set undang-undang berlainan untuk wanita. macam mana wanita nak bela hak dia? kalau lelaki cukup sahaja dia bertaubat, atau kalau suami dia cukup sahaja dia bersumpah.

Lejen

roblucci posted on 1-7-2013 06:45 PM
hang nak buat perubahan supaya homoseksual di halalkan dalam islam ke?

tak. aku nak buat perubahan supaya di negara kita ni lebih terbuka. lebih bertoleransi. menggunakan akal fikiran.

mashimaru83

kakikuDibibirmu posted on 1-7-2013 10:52 AM
Ayat holy koran 86:5-7

Jadi, dalam sains dari mana air mani datang?

izamahmed

Lejen posted on 2-7-2013 12:29 AM
tak. aku nak buat perubahan supaya di negara kita ni lebih terbuka. lebih bertoleransi. menggunaka ...

akal fikiran tu la boleh rosak kalau takde panduan agama
agama pulak disalah tafsir oleh akal fikiran yg rosak, makinlah rosak akhlak


apa contohnya perkara yg islam harus terima terbuka/perubahan?
apa contohnya perkara yg islam kurang bertoleransi?

Lejen

mashimaru83 posted on 1-7-2013 06:27 PM
Apa yg @Lejen nyatakan di sini adalah perundangan Islam. Seks sebelum kahwin adalah satu kes ...

apa yang anda quote sebenarnya adalah berbeza dari perbincangan. saya hanya quote ayat-ayat quran tersebut berdasarkan konteks. namun begitu, saya juga akan bahaskan isu yang anda utarakan tentang seks bebas (sebelum kawen).

seks sebelum kawen dari segi saintifiknya sekiranya anda mempunyai banyak hubungan kelamin dengan lelaki/wanita lain akan meningkatkan risiko AIDS oleh itu saya menentang seks sebelum kawen. ini bukan disebabkan agama, tetapi kerana terbukti secara saintifik. hubungan incest menurut budaya dan naluri manusia yang normal juga adalah salah. sebab manusia secara naluri tidak akan melakukan seks secara incest kerana dalam dunia ni hubungan ini juga bertentangan dengan undang-undang sivil.

Maaf jika saya katakan pemahaman @Lejen mengenai ayat tersebut adalah salah. Hukuman tersebut tetap dijalankan, dan selepas itu persaksian mereka tidak lagi boleh diterima dan mereka ini dianggap fasik kecuali jika mereka bertaubat.

kalau anda mengatakan pemahaman saya salah dan anda mengatakan hukuman masih tetap dijalankan, bermakna anda sudah melebihi tuhan itu sendiri kerana tuhan sudahpun memaafkan mereka.

@Lejen terlepas ayat 8 dan 9; terdapat juga sumpah dari pihak perempuan. (Maaf saya terletak ayat 7 dlm post sebelum).

Kembali kepada soalan asal. Bahagian mana dlm Al-Quran yg mendiskrimasi kaum wanita?

Dalam ayat 8 dan 9, kalau ikut konteksnya ayat itu merujuk kepada isteri yang boleh bersumpah.

namun begitu, ia masih tidak menjawab 24:4 yang mana sesiapa boleh menuduh wanita (bukan isteri) berzina dengan 4 saksi, kalau takda saksi, dan si penuduh itu berbohong jadi hukumlah si penuduh itu.

jika anda paham maksud diskriminasi, anda sudah dapat melihat ada 2 set undang-undang bagi isteri dan wanita (bukan isteri). bagi saya, kalau ada satu set undang-undang bagi wanita isteri atau bukan, itu bukanlah suatu bentuk diskriminasi tetapi kesamarataan.

namun begitu, ayat-ayat tersebut di atas bukan hanya ayat yang mendiskrimasi wanita. namun ada juga ayat lain. sebagai contoh:

Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. (4:11)

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things. (2:282)

Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. (2:228)

O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful. (5:6)

Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers. (2:223)

O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (33:50)

snipersnake

Lejen posted on 2-7-2013 08:56 AM
apa yang anda quote sebenarnya adalah berbeza dari perbincangan. saya hanya quote ayat-ayat quran  ...

ok Lejen.

kau kata dalm Quran ada ayat diskriminasi wanita lah apa lah etc.

kau nak apa sekarang? kau berani ke cakap yg AL QURAN ADALAM SEKSIS dan TAK RELEVAN UNTUK ZAMAN INI?

is this what you are getting at?

cuba cakap apa yg kononnya terbuka sgt tuh, yg kononnya hanya menurut logic akal, yg mana umat islam nih cuma bertaklid buta pada akhirat sedangkan ia tidak dibuktikan dari sudut sains?

please tell us what you are getting at? aku nak tgk kau punya root argument.

DTECCONAN

Lejen posted on 2-7-2013 08:00 AM
kau tak faham maksud aku.

maksud aku ada 2 undang-undang yang berlainan walaupun untuk para lel ...

inilah masalahnya kalau baca tapi tak faham maksud disebaliknya

ayat menuduh seseorg wanita berzina tu terang2 menunjukkan Islam memelihara wanita, sebab wanita selalu dituduh melakukan zina
bukannya main ikut mulut ja kata dia ni berzina dan sebagainya

sama juga dgn suami yg hanya perlu bersumpah, dlm Islam bukannya main sumpah kat tepi2 jalan
sama juga kes, suami tak boleh sewenang2nya tuduh isteri berzina pakai mulut ja
walaupun nampak sumpah ni mcm biasa sahaja, tetapi kesannya amat berat

jadi, semua ini sebenarnya utk memelihara maruah wanita yg sering kali dituduh berzina
dlm Islam sapa2 yg tuduh org lain berzina tanpa membawa empat saksi yg adil, mereka pula akan menerima hukuman

DTECCONAN

Lejen posted on 2-7-2013 08:29 AM
tak. aku nak buat perubahan supaya di negara kita ni lebih terbuka. lebih bertoleransi. menggunaka ...

masalahnya akal fikiran hang pun tak betul, mcm mana nak ubah cara pemikiran orang lain