Buddhism & God/s

Sephiroth

You are here to talk about Buddhism and God.
Do so OR leave. Your choice.

You are here to talk about Buddhism and God.
Do so OR leave. Your choice.

Wow... are you the moderator here??

or are you trying to steal the moderator's authority.
Just read the news, some fake Doctor molesting some lady.

Now we have a possible 'fake' moderator trying
to give me orders.


To Actual Moderator- Ariya
Does Sephiroth have the authority to give the
above commands?

Sephiroth

by muchomike

You cannot do a crap, can you? ;)
All talks which is nothing but empty as your heart is. ;)

To Actual Moderator- Ariya
Does Sephiroth have the authority to give the
above commands?

Hmph ... ;)
No one has authority over Buddhism. Moderator's post is NOT something big. It just a responsibility which is given to a forumer to do something properly.

In another word, a moderator's post WILL NOT save your sorry existence in this column, trying to state something which you cannot proof or disproof. You are a WASTE of others' time.

Leave so I can do proper things with this column. You are sight to inflict a sore eye. ;)

[ Last edited by Sephiroth on 27-5-2005 at 07:41 AM ]

Leave so I can do proper things with this column. You are sight to inflict a sore eye.

"so i can do proper things with this column"
sounds scary to me.

Hey, a good forum should welcome all views and perspectives
that conform to the rules set by the moderators.

Let the moderator decide.
If he says i should leave, then i will leave.

You should instead keep quiet and posts like any normal member.

Sephiroth

by muchomike

"so i can do proper things with this column"
sounds scary to me.

Scary because then, your illusion of what Buddhism will be cleared and you have to rethink again? You don't like to think, do you? ;)

Hey, a good forum should welcome all views and perspectives
that conform to the rules set by the moderators.

Let the moderator decide.
If he says i should leave, then i will leave.

You should instead keep quiet and posts like any normal member.

Wrong ... It is the forumers who decided what to post or not to post. Moderators are just perfects ... someone GIVEN responsiblity (by Admin) to undersee proper rules and regulation is followed.

So far I see here in the past 6 months, NO ONE bothers to bring forth any real discussion of Sutras and everytime there is a meaningful discussion, it is the Moderator who behave like a devil, pissing of people. I for one do not need such moderator.

IF Admin do not remove him (should he be back), then I WILL take proper measure to protect Buddhism from unhealthy influence such as Him and You. Be forewarned.

IF Admin do not remove him (should he be back), then I WILL take proper measure to protect Buddhism from unhealthy influence such as Him and You. Be forewarned.

This is only a discussion forum where people can present different views relating to Buddhism.

I see you are getting paranoid and mad from your way to thinking so far.

If I am the Admin, i will issue you a yellow card and ask you to stay away for a while to rest your disturbed mind.

Recommend you do Samatha to calm down.

Sephiroth

by muchomike

If I am the Admin, i will issue you a yellow card and ask you to stay away for a while to rest your disturbed mind.

I have send a PM to him regarding this matter and so far, (even so I have stepped over the line now and then), there is no Yellow card. To me, that means I'm still within acceptable level in attempt to protect Hindusm and Buddhism.

Recommend you do Samatha to calm down.

And I recommend you jump of the nearest building to give the rest of us a break. ;)

Do you really think theists will welcome with open arms an atheist who attacks their very core of beliefs? ;)

Just look at how many replied to threads you open and you will see the welcome you get. Maybe it's time you move to another forum, no? :cak:

And I recommend you jump of the nearest building to give the rest of us a break.

Oops!!! I don't think this is a 'Buddhist' way of communication.
Must be from the hallucinating 'devil' in you.

As far as i know, the Buddha always encourage compassion and understanding.

Just look at how many replied to threads you open and you will see the welcome you get.

I am aware the Buddha always advise not to cling to attachments nor expect any 'welcome', else it will only invite sufferings.

Both of u r *&*%^#$*(!!

This is what we call of Buddhism????

Every religion have their own concept n their own perspective.
Try to accept it in order 4 others to accept u.

Sephiroth

This thread is a waste of time. GOOD BYE.

I will continued with my own threads here later.

Both of u r *&*%^#$*(!!
Hey c lee, i presume you are a Buddhist, by the law of Karma, i will return you the same 'compliment' 10 times,
both of u r *&*%^#$*(!!

This is what we call of Buddhism????
Note i presented the Buddhist's view of God.
In the 3 rd post, Sephiroth started to make unnecessary remarks as below.

If you are not Buddhist (per_se or anything), then WHAT are you doing in Buddhism column?
It doesn't matter how many practises you involve in, if you do not have spiritualism and see it just another "exercise" like jogging, walking etc, then it is useless to you and it is useless to others (via discussion). In another word, you practise empty practises which brings nothing good.

All i did with my remarks subsequently was to remind him that he is contracdicting Buddhist teachings that i am aware of.


Every religion have their own concept n their own perspective.
Try to accept it in order 4 others to accept u.
I just wonder, how did you assume i do not know that every religion have their own concepts and perspectives.

By the way, i do not have the expectations that others should accept me. Per the Kalama Sutta, they should be critical and accept whatever is acceptable to them based on their own decisions and not be influenced blindly.

Incidentally, your post is too judgemental to begin with.

[ Last edited by muchomike on 30-5-2005 at 12:40 PM ]

I would like to post some views on 'God' by various Buddhist teachers here as a reference point.

I understand some Mahayanist do use the "god" concept in a limited way, but as Nyanaponika said, they are ideas subject to impermanence.

****************quote
Buddhism and the God-Idea
by Nyanaponika Thera

(extracts only)

Quite contradictory views have been expressed in Western literature on
  the attitude of Buddhism toward the concept of God and gods. From a
  study of the discourses of the Buddha preserved in the Pali Canon, it
  will be seen that the idea of a //personal diety//, a creator god
  conceived to be eternal and omnipotent, is incompatible with the
  Buddha's teachings. On the other hand, conceptions of an //impersonal
  godhead// of any description, such as world-soul, etc., are excluded by
  the Buddha's teachings on Anatta, non-self or unsubstantiality.

In Buddhist literature, the belief in a creator god
  (//issara-nimmana-vada//) is frequently mentioned and rejected, along
  with other causes wrongly adduced to explain the origin of the world;
  as, for instance, world-soul, time, nature, etc. God-belief, however,
  is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views
  which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of
  man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to
  be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their
  effect on ethical conduct.

But for an earnest believer, the God-idea is more than a mere device
  for explaining external facts like the origin of the world. For him it
  is an object of faith that can bestow a strong feeling of certainty,
  not only as to God's existence "somewhere out there," but as to God's
  consoling presence and closeness to himself. This feeling of certainty
  requires close scrutiny. Such scrutiny will reveal that in most cases
  the God-idea is only the devotee's projection of his ideal - generally
  a noble one - and of his fervent wish and deeply felt need to believe.
  These projections are largely conditioned by external influences, such
  as childhood impressions, education, tradition and social environment.
  Charged with a strong emotional emphasis, brought to life by man's
  powerful capacity for image-formation, visualization and the creation
  of myth, they then come to be identified with the images and concepts
  of whatever religion the devotee follows. In the case of many of the
  most sincere believers, a searching analysis would show that their
  "God-experience" has no more specific content than this.

Buddhism has sometimes been called an atheistic teaching, either in an
  approving sense by freethinkers and rationalists, or in a derogatory
  sense by people of theistic persuasion. Only in one way can Buddhism be
  described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of
  an eternal, omnipotent God or godhead who is the creator and ordainer
  of the world. The word "atheism," however, like the word "godless,"
  frequently carries a number of disparaging overtones or implications,
  which in no way apply to the Buddha's teaching.

Buddhism is not an enemy of religion as atheism is believed to be.
  Buddhism, indeed, is the enemy of none. A Buddhist will recognize and
  appreciate whatever ethical, spiritual and cultural values have been
  created by God-belief in its long and chequered history. We cannot,
  however, close our eyes to the fact that the God-concept has served too
  often as a cloak for man's will to power, and the reckless and cruel
  use of that power, thus adding considerably to the ample measure of
  misery in this world supposed to be an all-loving God's creation. For
  centuries free thought, free research and the expression of dissident
  views were obstructed and stifled in the name of service to God. And
  alas, these and other negative consequences are not yet entirely things
  of the past.
**********************unquote

For full article see:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp03.htm or
http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/genbud/godidea.zip

This full article is definitely worth reading for those who have not read it yet.

note:
I have raised similar thread but it was corrupted by Sephiroth who believe in god.

http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/genbud/religion.zip

BUDDHISM AS A RELIGION *
Ven. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda

Concept of God 朆uddhist View
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          This  is how imagination and humanism  eventually  fused
          together to become religion.  Some people say that it is
          difficult  to  believe that any  god  created  religion.
          Perhaps we could say that man created religion and later
          introduced  the  concept  of a  god  into  religion.  An
          American philosopher,  Prof. Whitehead, once stated that
          originally  man created god and later god  created  man.
          What he meant was that the concept of god was created by
          man   and  later  this  concept  was  transformed   into
          divinity.  On  the  other hand,  a  French  philosopher,
          Anatole  France said that if the concept of god did  not
          exist.  some  how or other, man would have  created  one
          because  it is very important for his psyche.  A  divine
          power is necessary to allay our innate fear,  suspicion,
          worries,   disturbances,  anxiety,  craving.   To  avoid
          problems  we  depend  on an external force  to  give  us
          solace. Knowing the nature of the human mind, therefore,
          Anatole France said that if a god did not exist we would
          have to create one.

          In  this sense we are just like children.  When a  small
          baby  is crying and the mother is too busy to carry  it,
          what  she does is to put a teat in its mouth to  comfort
          it.  That will stop the baby from crying. The concept of
          god  helps  many people in this manner.  To  stop  their
          worries  and  dry  their  tears  they  develop   various
          pacifiers   in  the  form  of  religious   beliefs   and
          practices.

Beliefs and Practices in Ancient India
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          There  was no reason at all for the Buddha to  introduce
          another  religion  because at that time 2600  years  ago
          there  were already 62 religious cults in  India  alone.
          Since  the existing religions during his time could  not
          provide  the answers to his questions he decided not  to
          use  the ingredients or concepts of these  religions  to
          introduce what he himself had realised.

          What  was the religious thinking in India at  the  time?
          "God   created  everybody;   god  is   responsible   for
          everything;  god will reward;  god can forgive  a11  our
          sins;  and  god is responsible for our lives  after  our
          death;  god will send us to heaven or He will send us to
          Hell".

          These  are the basic ingredients of all  religions  even
          today.  At  the  same  time  there  were  certain  other
          religions  also  in  India  which  taught  that  it  was
          necessary  for  believers  to  torture  their   physical
          bodies,  thinking  that they could wash away  all  their
          sins  during their lifetimes so they could go to  heaven
          after   death.   Another  religious   group   encouraged
          religious  rites and rituals and ceremonies  and  animal
          sacrifices  to please their gods.  This  group  believed
          that  through these practices they could go  to  heaven.
          Some  others  again introduced prayer  and  worship  and
          asked forgiveness for the sins committed. The Buddha did
          not recognise the efficacy of all these practices.

Do Buddhist believe in god?
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

No, we do not. There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear.

The Buddha says:

"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
Dp 188

Primitive man found himself in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constantly with him.
Finding no security, he created the idea of gods in order to give him comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong.
To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life.
You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered.
All this seems to support the Buddha抯 teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration.
The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.

The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea.
There are numerous religions, all claiming that they alone have god抯 words preserved in their holy book, that they alone understand god抯 nature, that their god exists and that the gods of other religions do not. Some claim that god is masculine, some that she is feminine and others that it is neuter. They are all satisfied that there is ample evidence to prove the existence of their god but they laugh in disbelief at the evidence other religions use to prove the existence of another god.
It is not surprising that with so many different religions spending so many centuries trying to prove the existence of their gods that still no real, concrete, substantial or irrefutable evidence has been found.
Buddhists suspend judgement until such evidence is forthcoming.


The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that the belief is not necessary.
Some claim that the belief in a god is necessary in order to explain the origin on the universe. But this is not so. Science has very convincingly explained how the universe came into being without having to introduce the god-idea. Some claim that belief in god is necessary to have a happy, meaningful life. Again we can see that this is not so.
There are millions of atheists and free-thinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who live useful, happy and meaningful lives without belief in a god.
Some claim that belief in god抯 power is necessary because humans, being weak, do not have the strength to help themselves. Once again, the evidence indicates the opposite.
One often hears of people who have overcome great disabilities and handicaps, enormous odds and difficulties, through their own inner resources, through their own efforts and without belief in a god.
Some claim that god is necessary in order to give man salvation. But this argument only holds good if you accept the theological concept of salvation and Buddhists do not accept such a concept.
Based on his own experience, the Buddha saw that each human being had the capacity to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion and perfect understanding.
He shifted attention from the heavens to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.

Good Question Good Answers
Ven. S Dhammika

So if Buddhists don抰 believe in gods, what do you believe in?
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans78.htm
  
We don抰 believe in a god because we believe in man.

We believe that each human being is precious and important, that all have the potential to develop into a Buddha

Mahayana Buddhism (like Theravada Buddhism) posits no Creator or ruler God.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8045_1.html


http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm
There is no place for God in the Mahayana traditions of Buddhism as well, and indeed some of the early Indian Mahayana philosophers have denounced god-worship in terms which are even stronger than those expressed in the Theravada literature. Some later Mahayana schools, which flourished outside India, ascribed some degree of divinity to a transcendent Buddha, considering living Buddhas to be a manifestation of this 鈊hi-buddha. But even here it cannot be said that the Buddha was converted into a Divinity comparable to the God of the monotheistic religions.


Buddhism as a Non-Theistic Religion

Buddhism is unique amongst the religions of the world because it does not have any place for God in its soteriology. Indeed most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions. But Buddhism goes beyond most of these other religions in that it is positively anti-theistic because the very notion of God conflicts with some principles which are fundamental to the Buddhist view of the world and the role of humans in it (see section "The God-Concept and Buddhist Principles" below).

The path of the Buddha cannot be followed if a person is deluded by the notion of God. This is why a correct understanding of all the ramifications of the God-idea is essential for anyone seeking to progress along the Buddhist path to total liberation.


The God-Concept and Buddhist Principles
Quite apart from explicit statements refuting the God-idea there is a fundamental incompatibility between the notion of God and basic Buddhist principles. We have already mentioned that God cannot be reconciled with the Buddhist notion of causality, which is contained in the theory of "dependent origination" which is one of the discoveries of the Buddha during his enlightenment. Certainly nothing like this theory has been propounded prior to the Buddha.


The Buddha argues that the three most commonly given attributes of God, viz. omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence towards humanity cannot all be mutually compatible with the existential fact of dukkha.

From the Buddhist standpoint the classic theistic statement that "God created man in his (i.e. God's) image" has actually to be reversed. It is man who has created God in his (i.e. man's) image! And as man's own image changes so does that of his God. Thus in the present time with the rise of feminism there is an attempt to change the gender of God from a man to a woman (or perhaps even to a neuter). To liberate himself mankind has to shed his delusions, and one of these is the existence of God.



The Buddhist View of God

In the Buddhist texts Mah

God from the Tibetian Buddhism Perspectives.

For the severest Advaita Vedantin, just as for the Dalai Lama, there is no God as personal Lord.
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1998/2/1998-2-06.shtml


From the many readings of the Dalai Lama's books, I gathered he do not give priority to the concept of 'god exists'.

Here is one view he gave on the Primordial Buddha.
http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes22.html

************quote
"You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God?"

I understand the Primordial Buddha, also known as Buddha Samantabhadra, to be the ultimate reality, the realm of the Dharmakaya-- the space of emptiness--where all phenomena, pure and impure, are dissolved. This is the explanation taught by the Sutras and Tantras. However, in the context of your question, the tantric tradition is the only one which explains the Dharmakaya in terms of Inherent clear light, the essential nature of the mind; this would seem imply that all phenomena, samsara and nirvana, arise from this clear and luminous source.

We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein.

*************unquote

Although the Dalai Lama mentioned 'creator', i don't think he would associate that with the typical 'god' of theist religions.

Luckily I am a money thinker...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats is the most powerful god 4 me.

ariyamusafir

In Buddhism, there is no one almighty god creator of everything the way Christians and Muslims believe. There are many gods but they too one day will die. The only way not to die is not to come into birth.