Not converting to Islam = betraying Jesus???

kid

God commandakum dinukum walyadin, For you your religion, for me my religion.

Why it is so hard to understand... .? God give freedom, human make it difficult.
Let those woman become Christian... So what?

Sephiroth

kid posted on 17-5-2014 12:58 AM
God commandakum dinukum walyadin, For you your religion, for me my religion.

Why it is so hard  ...

And yet, under Hudud System, she is sentenced to death for leaving islam and committing adultery (by marrying a Christian and having sex with him).

You may forget that only two weeks ago PAS was so eager to implement Hudud System in Kelantan by stating that it is duty of all Muslims to uphold and implement Allah's laws (Hudud). In Brunei, they already implement it and received international condemnation. So what will the pretender (Kid) say to that? That Hudud is not Allah's laws?

kid

My stand is clear from the beginning, Allah's law is Qur'an.

Fact that Hudud is not from the Quran. For example no execution for murtadin, nor stoning for adultery in Quran.

Sorry to offend anyone who support Hudud, if you support it than it is your right.

@Sephiroth, You can call me pretender or whatever, doesn't matter. I only fear God.

Sephiroth

by Kid

My stand is clear from the beginning, Allah's law is Qur'an.

YOUR STAND MEANS NOTHING HERE.

You are not a Muslim by Islamic standards. You reject Al-Hadith AND now you reject the Hudud System which Muhammad had brought. If you reject 2 out of 3 in your Islam, how can you still call yourself a Muslim. You are NOT Muslim. Your statement and stand on the matters means NOTHING.

kid

Sephiroth posted on 19-5-2014 09:04 AM
by Kid

YOUR STAND MEANS NOTHING HERE.

I DONT CARE YOUR OPINION, WHAT I CARE ONLY GOD'S OPINION

You are not a Muslim by Islamic standards. You reject Al-Hadith AND now you reject the Hudud System which Muhammad had brought. If you reject 2 out of 3 in your Islam, how can you still call yourself a Muslim. You are NOT Muslim. Your statement and stand on the matters means NOTHING.

Yes probably I'm not Muslim by today's Muslim standard. But remember, during prophet Muhammad era there was NO hadith, NO Hudud.
That time Muslim only follow Qur'an, and YES they are Muslim by God's standard.

Sephiroth

by Kid

Yes probably I'm not Muslim by today's Muslim standard. But remember, during prophet Muhammad era there was NO hadith, NO Hudud.

So where does this Hadith and Hudud comes from? Your opinion.

kid

Sephiroth posted on 21-5-2014 08:19 AM
by Kid

Hadith grew about 70-250years after prophet Muhammad death, and then Hudud follows.
Wikipedia on Hadith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

So Qur'an and Hadith are different, and Hudud based on Hadith and Fiqh. Enough said.

Sephiroth

kid posted on 21-5-2014 11:14 AM
Hadith grew about 70-250years after prophet Muhammad death, and then Hudud follows.
Wikipedia on  ...

I have been telling readers here that Islam (we have today) are nothing more than Cultural-based Conquest. Again, this is not just one person's opinion. I have a group who (occassionally sits down and discuss this sort of things) and we have come out with the following senario.

Cultural-based Conquest means that certain individuals conquer another race not by warfare but by promoting belief system like this to weak-minded individuals, who is then converted to become "cancers" within a society.

These cancers could continue to promote the foreign belief system, recruiting friends and family members, patiencely accepting all form of criticism and ill-treatment while building an army. Once there are enough manpower, they could elect a leader among themselves and try to push for power in the government. Once they have enough people in the government, they could try to "convert the nation" to their ways.

This is my beliefe - By looking at the situation based on the above context, Islam can be considered as a political-based belief system and NOT a religion. It was created not to bring humans toward God but rather a clever way for a certain race (namely the Arabs) to conquer the World without shedding blood themselves. All they have to do is to promote Islam (by any means possible - especially financially) and foolish humans like the Malays here could do their work (promoting and fighting to protect Islam) and you could have hundreds of countries which follows Arabic model of government and social order.

Again, this is MY opinion and I could welcome comments.

kid

@Sephiroth

For instance, Islam means "submission", which is obviously submission to God, not to any others (people, books, materialism etc).

Looking at this simple fact, you can compare what today's religion and the meaning of true Islam, they sounds different eh?

But this is not an isolated case, Jews and Christian was also Islam, but they turned their religion into a human made rituals and laws.

One important fact you must know, Islam was not invented by prophet Muhammad, it was there since Adam, the religion Islam was given to Abraham specifically, father of monotheistic religion, father of Moses, David, Isa (Jesus) and Muhammad who later brough scriptures in their time to warn the people.

No matter their label (religions) they are Muslim as long as they submit to God alone. But the sad fact, it is rare to find people who submit to God alone.

It is very obvious Muhammad didn't invented anything, just like Moses, David and Isa (Jesus) never invented anything, they just delivered the message of God to their people, but history proved that their people always deviated after their death! Their people invented new laws and rituals and call it "Religion"

If we see in every past and present civilizations, yes religion is more like a cult and political tool to gather follower as many as they can and tend to be violence. This was NEVER God's religion. God's religion taught us to improve ourselves in better way, be kindness, charitable, steadfast, intellectual, not to become backward and violence.

It is clear the DEVIL indeed misguided people from the true religion since thousand years up to today, they dont submit to God, but to their ulama, rabbi, priest etc, when they submitted to human being and not God, the result is clear. They went backward instead of progressing forward.

I would enjoy further discussion as long as in open minded air.

Sephiroth

by Kid

For instance, Islam means "submission", which is obviously submission to God, not to any others (people, books, materialism etc).

Sorry but I disagree.

I believe that Submission in Islam means that you are submitting yourself to others (people). There is no issue of God in their matter.

It makes a better understanding if one were to take Islam as a political-based belief system instead of a religious based system. There are clear indication who you are reporting to in Islam.

Regular people ---> (report to) Government officials ---> Religious officers ---> Religious senior Muallahs.

Where is your God in the middle here? Do you report to God? Do you submit to God? No, you submit to these above mentioned hierarchy and they will determine if you are being faithful.

So how can you say you are being submitted to your God when it is humans who determines your level of submission?

How can you say that Islam is a religion of God (and not some political system disguise as religion) when there are so many things wrong with Islam - including Al Hadith and Hudud?

What if you (Muslims in general) are fighting against God Himself by promoting a man-made belief called Islam, which sole purpose is to enslave the human race, like Nazism had done? Have you thought about all these or is blindly submitting is all you ever good for?

kid

Sephiroth posted on 21-5-2014 02:44 PM
by Kid

Sorry but I disagree.

I believe that Submission in Islam means that you are submitting yourself to others (people). There is no issue of God in their matter.

It makes a better understanding if one were to take Islam as a political-based belief system instead of a religious based system. There are clear indication who you are reporting to in Islam.

Regular people ---> (report to) Government officials ---> Religious officers ---> Religious senior Muallahs.

What you said is actually against the pure teaching of real Islam, which can be found in Qur'an

A. Submission must be to God alone:
"I am God, there is no god but Me, therefore you shall worship Me and observe the Salat to commemorate Me." 20:14

B. Even we shouldnot submitted to prophet, let alone mullah/other people
"It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be worshippers of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your reading (it yourselves)." 3:79

C. The Quran emphasized that all those who died, whether they are mullah, messengers or idols cannot hear us when we call on them.
“...The ones you call on beside Him do not posses as much as a seed's shell. If you call on them, they cannot hear your calls. But even if they heard you, they cannot respond to you. On the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your association. None informs you as One who is All-Aware.”  35:13-14

D. The excuse of people who idolize other people, ustadz, ulama, mullah, prophet etc:
“Absolutely, the religion should be devoted purely to God. Those who set up allies beside him, "We only idolize them so that they may bring us closer to God!” 39:3

Clearly from the above, you only submit to God and God alone. You might seeing the reality of Muslim who submit to other people and make ally of God, but they are belong to the disbeliever as told in 39:3

True Islam is true submission to God alone.

How can you say that Islam is a religion of God (and not some political system disguise as religion) when there are so many things wrong with Islam - including Al Hadith and Hudud?

What you are talked about is "Islam" inside the bracket, but looking at Qur'an clearly now you know what is real the Islam is.
Real Islam is God alone with Qur'an, no other sources like what prophet commanded to delivered, even the prophet didn't have idea about Hadith and Hudud, both are created long after his death.

[quote]What if you (Muslims in general) are fighting against God Himself by promoting a man-made belief called Islam, which sole purpose is to enslave the human race, like Nazism had done? Have you thought about all these or is blindly submitting is all you ever good for?

Yes of course I thought about it, and in fact it had happened in the past before: Jews, Christian, other religions etc. People idolized allies beside God and created their own man-made book/law and said it was from God. It is not a surprise if people today do the same thing, they created another book with excuse that Qur'an is not detailed enough, but what God said?

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

God knows that majority of the people willl deviate, this has been foretold in Qur'an.

"And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly." 12:103

"And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah’s path. They follow nothing but conjecture, and they do nothing but lie." 6:116

"And most of them We found to be not true to their covenant, but most of them We found indeed to be evil sinners." 7:102

This is because God allow them to deviate each other

"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire to one another fancy sayings in order to deceive" 6:112

So God command us to not blindly submitting to other people who might deceive us. God allow people to deviate so in order to separate the true believer from the fake believer.

Sephiroth

by Kid

What you said is actually against the pure teaching of real Islam, which can be found in Qur'an

No, what you follow IS against "real Islam".

When Muhammad reached Madinah and establish a Muslim country, what did he do?

1. Establish a Muslim rule - convert to Islam, pay Jizyah or go to war.
2. Everything must be run through him and his four "friends".
3. Commission writing down the Laws based on Al Quran and Al Hadith so no one can question them.
4. Establishing military rule.

This is the political Islam. And this is the Islam many Muslims trying to establish here in Malaysia through establishing Hudud (the first step). Once that is done, the Muallahs will take over and they could skip to step four. And fools like you will keep daydreaming that you are following the true Islam.

Real Islam is God alone with Qur'an, no other sources like what prophet commanded to delivered, even the prophet didn't have idea about Hadith and Hudud, both are created long after his death.

Go and tell that to your fellow Muslims. IF they could listen to you and stop these daydream about Hudud, then I will considered what you said about Islam as truth.

Yes of course I thought about it, and in fact it had happened in the past before: Jews, Christian, other religions etc.

DO NOT TALK ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS HERE. YOU KNOW $HIT ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS.

Jews and Christians lived side-by-side for a few hundred years with one common enemy - the Romans. They did not fight among themselves till Islam came along. Hindus and Buddhists have lived in peace and spread their knowledge and wisdom across Asia all the way to Japan. They did not fight among themselves.

Everything changed with coming of Islam. Islam brought chaos, destruction and strife to many belief and people. It tries and trying to change everything God had established. It promotes Ignorance, arrogance, warmongering, violence, overpopulation and strife. There is not a single thing in Islam which can be said to be good. Islam is against Natural order of the World and therefore, against God Himself.

kid

@Sephiroth

I consider what you said are your own opinion, and you are entitled to say anything.
You took your views mostly based on unverifiable hadith story or what enemy of Islam said.

While me, I'm stating the fact from Qur'an. What you said totally against it, so it is impossible for prophet Muhammad to have done what you thought.

For instance, Muhammad couldn't not implement anything/law based on hadith, it is impossible since no Hadith exist during his time.

This is the major flaw in your theory.

Anyhow there is no further case to discuss as clearly you have your own mind already and it is to blame everything in Islam

So I will stop arguing now, it is pointless...

Sephiroth

by Kid

I consider what you said are your own opinion, and you are entitled to say anything.
You took your views mostly based on unverifiable hadith story or what enemy of Islam said.

You (Muslims) made those enemies. Do you expect them to say nice things to say about Islam?
Alright, let me ask you - what is in Islam which we need today? Answer me that.

What you said totally against it, so it is impossible for prophet Muhammad to have done what you thought.

Go and read Four Six Sejarah Islam, kid. What I state is printed by the Malaysia Government for Form Six students. It is not something I have thought of. Everything there - from Hijrah, caravan raids, tribal warfare, sending out letters to convert to Islam, establishing Islamic hudud and finally attacking Mecca (after the Quiraisy surrendered). It is all there.

For instance, Muhammad couldn't not implement anything/law based on hadith, it is impossible since no Hadith exist during his time.

Like I said, go and preach this to your fellow Muslims. I want to see how fast they through you into prison for insulting Islam. For a group of fanatic minded Muslims like what we have here in Malaysia, who get so work-up over dogs, I'm sure you make a fine prey. Go ahead Kid. Why don't you write to the newspapers, in FB (and public the link here) or to PAS. See what happens.

So I will stop arguing now, it is pointless...  

It is pointless because you cannot get past the facts :-

1. Muhammad was just a man with a Messiah Complex.
2. Allah was nothing more than his fragment of imagination.

3. Islam is political-disguised ideology - probably motived to improve the Arab in par with Christians and Jews.

4. After Muhammad died, Muslims hijack it, added Hudud Laws to prevent people from leave Islam (as Abu Bakar had discovered).

5. There is no God in Islam.

These are the true fact of Islam. You can never get past these facts no matter how hard you try.

kid

Since your reply is in good tone, I will answer that.

By Sephiroth

You (Muslims) made those enemies. Do you expect them to say nice things to say about Islam?
Alright, let me ask you - what is in Islam which we need today? Answer me that.

No, I dont expect non-Muslim say nice thing about Islam, I dont even expect Muslim to say nice thing about me (as a follower of Qur'an alone), this is not important for me.
By the way answering your question, obviously you knew aready, but ok I will state again:

What we need today is "real" Islam by going back to Qur'an to uphold the true words of God, and leave the man-made hearsay which passed down centuries after the prophet death as new law apart from Qur'an.

The qualities of Quranic laws:
1. God is the direct teacher of Qur'an (not ulama, ustadz, or other books etc)
2. Quranic law is complete and detailed, no need more addition orabrogation by external books created by man
3. Quran uphold the freedom in belief (lakum dinukum waliyadin), nobody can push anyone to believe what he belief either Muslim or Non-Muslim
4. Quran emphasized the importance of self betterment, charity, doing kindness and good work, not to do the pointless non-Quranic rituals made by Persian men centuries ater prophet death.
5. God hold the absolute truth, all disputes and differences must be returned to the law of God. Not the man-made law who might be unfair, discriminating.
6. In a country of mixed belief and religions, each religious matter must be returned to the person's religion/belief. I.e Islamic law cannot be pushed against non-Muslim, vice versa

There are many others but let just say the aboe are the one related to our discussion, and all the above are based on Qur'an, so you can see stark differences with today's Islam?

Go and read Four Six Sejarah Islam, kid. What I state is printed by the Malaysia Government for Form Six students. It is not something I have thought of. Everything there - from Hijrah, caravan raids, tribal warfare, sending out letters to convert to Islam, establishing Islamic hudud and finally attacking Mecca (after the Quiraisy surrendered). It is all there.

I read it all. And all the above was from hadith. If you read Qur'an, many of the above will raise your eyebrow.

Like I said, go and preach this to your fellow Muslims. I want to see how fast they through you into prison for insulting Islam. For a group of fanatic minded Muslims like what we have here in Malaysia, who get so work-up over dogs, I'm sure you make a fine prey.  Go ahead Kid. Why don't you write to the newspapers, in FB (and public the link here) or to PAS. See what happens.

I'm not a preacher and it is NOT my duty to do so.
To bring the truth into the heart of men is the power solely belong to God, only God can do that, while me and you and others ar ejust mere human being with our weaknesses.

To make it more clear for you:

1. In Qur'an Dog is the companion of man, in fact the righteous people of the cave (Al-Kahfi) sleep with their dog.
2. There are 4 occasion dog mentioned in Qur'an and all in positive tones, even we can eat meat hunted by our dog.
3. The prohibition of dogs comes from mostly Abu-Hurairah hadith (Abu Hurairah means father of kitten)

Today there is a Muslim couple in Kedah who pickup stray dogs from street and fed and keep them, it is called "Pak Mie Animal Shelter"
http://pakmieshelter.blogspot.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH1fLV7asho

It is pointless because you cannot get past the facts :-

1. Muhammad was just a man with a Messiah Complex.
2. Allah was nothing more than his fragment of imagination.
3. Islam is political-disguised ideology - probably motived to improve the Arab in par with Christians and Jews.
4. After Muhammad died, Muslims hijack it, added Hudud Laws to prevent people from leave Islam (as Abu Bakar had discovered).
5. There is no God in Islam.

These are the true fact of Islam. You can never get past these facts no matter how hard you try.

You should bring yourself out of the cage of the mind-trap. Both Muslim and non-muslim has been fed dogmas and false impression by thousand years.

If you need to know God you just see the truth around you, not by hearing craps from people who lived centruries before you?

You and your folks taken Islam from the context of hadith, my mission is just stating the truth, and I'm not a preacher, nor I have intention to make you believe in anything.

What you said is repetitions, I knew your views already, no need to repeat it again and again to me. Come up with something new. But first understand the Qur'an, not just baseless hadith.

Our choice and decision in this earth will be bring over in the day of Judgement before God Himself. So be careful with your decision.

Sephiroth

by Kid

No, I dont expect non-Muslim say nice thing about Islam,

Because Islam has NOTHING GOOD worth stating.

The qualities of Quranic laws:

I asked you ONE simple question - what is in Islam which we (today) needs and you give me this crap? You think we cannot find God without your Islam? You think we cannot be humane? Have freedom without your Islam? ARE YOU INSANE? WHICH HOLE YOU CRAWL OUT FROM?

Mankind have been around for 250,000 years but in the past 1,400 years, he have been fighting in name of some god he cannot even proof because of Islam. We are better off without this Arabic ideology hanging around our necks all day long. You have FAILED to produce even ONE reason why Islam is required in modern times.

I read it all. And all the above was from hadith. If you read Qur'an, many of the above will raise your eyebrow.

It is printed by Dewan Bahasa and Pustaka and frankly speaking, I trust them more than I could trust you, an Anti-Hadith member.

I'm not a preacher and it is NOT my duty to do so.

No, you are a liar and you KNOW what comes out of your mouth is bull$hit. Islam teaches Muslims how to lie to non-muslims in order to safeguard it's integrity. That is how this Arabic nonsense able to last 1,400 years - through lies. And that is the proof that Islam is a false belief and Allah is nothing more than Muhammad's imagination.

Both Muslim and non-muslim has been fed dogmas and false impression by thousand years.

You are right here. I agree with you. And the false impression Muslims and non-Muslims have been fed is that Islam is a religion when it is nothing more than an Arabic political ideology. Muhammad had seen that he Arabs are weak and pathetic when compared to their neighbours and they always fight among themselves.

So he created a system to unify them through an imaginary god named Allah. He probably think by worshipping one god, they could all bound by the same laws just like Jews and Christians. After he died, Muslims use Islam to control non-Arabs to fight for them, expanding extension of their empires by giving them a daydream that if they died a dogs dead in battle, they going to get to heaven. And that stupidity among others still exist to this day.

adiariff82

menarik, tertarik..... kamu mmg da bomb...

kid

@Sephiroth

It is interesting how you insist to shove down your version of Islam to me a Muslim, if you are a Muslim probably you are those hardliner type like Salafy who said they are always right and others are wrong

If you really hold on to that then it is perfectly fine, it is your right to hold on to anyway you want, I dont care.

As I said I'm not a preacher, nor I said I was right and you are wrong. Nobody know for sure what is right until judgement day comes.

The difference between me and you, I just try to follow the truth the best I can while I leave to God to decide.
while you, you always think you are right as if you are God.

You see, that is true Islam, leave the decision to God alone, and always thrive to the truth, and never judge others or claim we are right others are wrong.

This is lesson no 1 about true Islam for you. Only God hold the absolute truth.

We will go to lesson no 2 later.

Sephiroth

by Kid

It is interesting how you insist to shove down your version of Islam to me a Muslim, if you are a Muslim probably you are those hardliner type like Salafy who said they are always right and others are wrong  

And it is interesting that you have no faith in half of your belief System (namely Al-Hadith and the laws it brings) and still consider Islam as a truthful religion even so you admit that many things in it is wrong. I maybe a hardliner but you are a fool. Only a fool believes in something false even so the evidence against it have been given.

The difference between me and you, I just try to follow the truth the best I can while I leave to God to decide. while you, you always think you are right as if you are God.

That is the difference between a Spiritualist and a religious. Spiritualist is alike a candle - no matter which was you hold it, the flame always burn upward. The strength of our faith lies in examining the facts and coming to the Truth, no matter how hard or distasteful it maybe. You are happy as long as you can follow something - even a lie.

Here's my lesson for you - Go ahead if Lies are suitable for you to follow. That is your choice, I couldn't be bothered. I know what is coming.

kid

By Sephiroth
And it is interesting that you have no faith in half of your belief System (namely Al-Hadith and the laws it brings) and still consider Islam as a truthful religion even so you admit that many things in it is wrong. I maybe a hardliner but you are a fool. Only a fool believes in something false even so the evidence against it have been given.

It is interesting that you still miss the  point after numerous posts I gave you.
I only believe in Qur'an and nothing else. And that is the complete Islam without the need of other sources/books in my opinion.

If you still insist that Qur'an need other sources, then talk to other folks, not me. You are barking the wrong tree man LOL

That is the difference between a Spiritualist and a religious. Spiritualist is alike a candle - no matter which was you hold it, the flame always burn upward. The strength of our faith lies in examining the facts and coming to the Truth, no matter how hard or distasteful it maybe. You are happy as long as you can follow something - even a lie.

Again you are barking the wrong tree, I'm not religious in terms of nowadays "religion". I'm just submit myself to God in truthness and keep myself apart from the "religion" standard set by human.

Can't you see this... still?

This is the lesson no 2 of true Islam for you:

Islam is not a "religion" as per human standard. Islam is universal in spiritualism without the religious labels and dogmas, it is the way to salvation, not just pointless rituals which leads nowhere, it is a true way of life that defined by God as the full submission to Him alone.

So Islam is the way of life, the straight path. Lesson no 2.

Heck whay I explain this to you... you even still can't see this afterward

Maybe I need to tell you again for the last time, I'm not a Muslim as "per your standard". I have no religious label, no sect, no nothing, I'm just God's follower.

By the way you might be label yourself as "spiritualist", what now Hinduism is spiritualist? I have to say this, in your spiritualism you still attach to world matters, whether a teaching/books/spiritual gurus etc are all the same idolization in my opinion.

We should only idolize God alone.