M5 replied at 9-3-2017 09:32 PM
jgn la gelojoh sangat. siap claim carbon dating depa buat kat parchment as well as the writing. in ...
jgn la gelojoh sangat. siap claim carbon dating depa buat kat parchment as well as the writing. ink tu mana ada depa buat carbon dating. kulit binatang tu yes. ink tu kena assume saja few years after binatang tu mati, kulitnya dijadikan bahan tulisan.
Abis tu nko ingat Prof2 tu terima bulat2 claiming discovery of the oldest Quran manuscript
without even checking the paleography, textual analysis, ink …et cetera2.
Sudah tentula mereka Prof2 tu mengkaji or sekurang masih dalam kajian.
Takke Prof2 ini akan malu sekiranya apa yg mereka wawarkan adalah PALSU !!
those yg kaji classical arabic paham yg chapter separator, marked/dotted verse ending, ink merah etc semuanya pointing to the evidence that the writing was done ca end of 7th or early 8th century.
Yg nko cakap ni fragments Quran yg dijumpai di Yemen, different verses of Al Quran.
Dr.Gerd, German Scholar yg buat kajian beberapa tafsiran sendiri (Arabic and Syriac)
lebih menjuruskan kpd pemahaman Kritian sebab Al Quran Kuno without vowels
hanya org2 Arab yg faham membaca dan maksud sebenarnya.
Yes..fragments yg ini dikatakan late 7th century or early 8th century.
irony is, kalu diambil carbon dating of the parchment dated c. 568 and 645 as the ultimate proof, sedara kena juga menerima kemungkinan yg al quran itu sudah ujud sebelum era Muhammad c. 570 to 632 yakni 2 tahun awal sebelum Nabi Muhamad lahir.
Carbon dating of the parchment dated 568 and645 AD, kan dia kata 95% accuracy,
meaning estimated that range . Kenapa nak ambik yg dated 568 , why not take 645 AD?
gunala common sense, Nabi SAW pon belum lahir lagi…tak logic.
Nabi SAW terima wahyu pon dated 610 AD, then tengok manuscript tu Surah apa ?
SurahTa-ha, tahun bila Surah Ta-ha revealed?? Year 615 AD…so kat sini dah narrow down the margin. Bukannya buta2 guesstimate.
Prof Thomas says that some of the passages of the Koran were written down on parchment, stone, palm leaves and the shoulder blades of camels - and a final version, collected in book form, was completed in about 650.
He says that "the parts of the Koran that are written on this parchment can, with a degree of confidence, be dated to less than two decades after Muhammad's death".
Senang cerita tak payah guna date carbon dating.
“Final version, collected in book form, was completed in about 650.” Zaman Khalifah Uthman Ibn Affan.
Nabi SAW wafat 632 AD. Umur manuscript Al Quran Kuno itu tak lebih dari 18 tahun
selepas kematian Nabi SAW.
Sebab tu in the video Prof Thomas kata ia kemungkinan
ditulis oleh Sahabat Nabi SAW yg berada bersama2 Nabi SAW.
Nko ingat sorang ajer ker yg tulis ayat al Quran atas parchment ??
Bila dimakan kambeng, hilang la ayat Al Quran, mati la aku
as if org lain takde simpan copy ??
Hanya org BODOH ajer yg berfikir demikian..
RAMAI sahabat2 Nabi SAW yg menghafal Al Quran..
Hahaha...carikla modal lain, Al Quran bukan bergantung pada SATU record sahaja
RAMAI yg menghafalnya..
Manaahil Al-ʻIrfaan reads:
“There was a great number of the Companions who memorized the Quran during the lifetime of the Messenger, including the four Rightly-guided Caliphs, Talhah, Saʻd, Ibn Masʻood, Huthayfah, Saalim (the freed slave of Abu Huthayfah), Abu Hurayrah, Ibn ʻUmar, Ibn ʻAbbaas, ʻAmr ibn Al-ʻAas and his son ʻAbdullaah, Muʻaawiyyah, Ibn Az-Zubayr, ʻAbdullaah ibn As-Saa'ib, ʻAa'ishah, Hafsah, and Umm Salamah, and they were all from the Muhaajireen (emigrants) all. Those who memorized the Quran in his lifetime from the Ansaar were Ubayy ibn Kaʻb, Muʻaath ibn Jabal, Zayd ibn Thaabit, Abu Ad-Dardaa', Majmaʻ ibn Haarithah, Anas ibn Maalik, and Abu Zayd, about whom Anas was asked and said, 'He is one of my cousins all...' It was also said that some of them completed the memorization of the Quran after the death of the Prophet, sallallaahu ʻalayhi wa sallam.”
Hadis ayat dimakan kambeng tu Hadis Daef (Lemah) dari Ibnu Ishaq.
Ibnu Ishaq ni seorang Tadlis, kebanyakan hadis2 nya ditolak sebab bercanggah. dgnhadis2 Sahih yg lain.
Sebenarnya Nabi SAW sendiri yg tidak membenarkan ayat rejam itu
dimasukkan dlm Ayat2 Quran yg lain.
Ini SEBAB nya mengapa ayat Rejam itu TIADA dalam Al Quran
Segala keputusan Nabi SAW adalah petunjuk dari Allah SWT.
“And when Our Clear Verses are recited unto them, those who hope not for their
meeting with Us, say: Bring us a Quran other than this, or change it.
”Say (O Muhammad SAW): “It is not for me to change it on
own accord; I only follow that which is revealed unto me.
Verily, I fear if I were to disobey my Lord, the torment of the
Great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection).
(Quran, Surah Yunus 10:15).
Adakah sahabat2 Nabi SAW lupa akan ayat2 Al Quran ?? TIDAK.
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten,
but We substitute something better or similar:
Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (Quran Surah Al Baqarah 2:106.)
Allah SWT menjanjikan TIADA ayat2 Al Quran yg dilupakan..
Ayat rejam TIDAK HILANG tetapi digantikan dgn ayat2 yg lebih baik..
Siapa yg BERHAK menggantikan ayat2 Al Quran?? Allah SWT sahaja.
Dan baca serta turutlah apa yang diwahyukan kepadamu dari kitab Tuhanmu;
tiada sesiapa yang dapat mengubah kalimah-kalimahNya; dan engkau tidak
sekali-kali akan mendapat tempat perlindungan selain daripadaNya.
(Quran Surah Al-Khafi 18:27)
Itu ler org suruh pegi majelis ilmu Kg Railway ...nko ponteng
Ini BUKAN bermakna ada 24 versi Al Quran lain berbeza makna
antara satu sama lain..
SEMUA Al Quran adalah SAMA, membawa maksud yg SAMA, cuma berbeza sebutan disebabkan dialek faktor geografi.
The Qur’aan was revealed in one style at the beginning, but the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kept asking Jibreel until he taught him seven styles, all of which were complete. The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.(Akhruf)” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819)
-kitab mana turun dulu?
-quran
kitab quran dikatakan words of allah..
-quran dan citer awal2 takde takkan dimodify pinda dilindungi etc
-jadi kononya tuhan dah claim awal2 dah..
tetiba muncul lak kitab hadis 200 tahun kemudia
-terus kata ada surah rejam siap ada hukum bab hukum rejam orang ni bukan main2..
-tapi surah tu hilang dimakan kambeng
-lalu nak belit mullah kata
-surah tu dipilih nabi untuk diganti kat sini(hadis)yakni still hilang dari quran yang dilindungi tuhan 200tahun awal
-surah tu tak hilang tapi dihafal RAMAI orangtapi tak muncul2 lagi dimana2 quran didunia yang dikatakan dilindungi tuhan
jelas sini puak2 lobai/lobainita ni beriman kepasa sape ..allah ke..nabi ke ..mullah2 setan?
nampaknye walaupun ayat2 allah bagi guarenti awal2 lagi perihal kesucian wahyunya yang tetap dijaga tanpa ape2 cacat cela
namun ummah belacan totap masih caya kata2 mullah 200 yang kitab mullah lebih superior and
-wahyu boleh diliph nabi
-wahyu dimakan kambeng lalu hilang
-tetiba claim ada dihafal ramai sebab kantoi tapi bila suruh baca tak bagi2 wahyu tu
soalan cepu mas...sapa tuhan sebenar ni
allah kah?muhammad kah?or mullah2 setan padang paser pengarang pelbagai ribuan2 hadis karut marut mitos segala yang diangkat dijo ummah kalah kitab so claimed from tuahn sendiri?
simple je..nak proof theory korang senang je..
bak mai wahyu beb rejam tu yang konon diclaim nabi mansuhkan(macam dia lak tuhan)..tapi dimakan kambeng.....TAPI.....dihafal RAMAI....TAPI lagi....tak muncul2 sampai la ni..walau dicabar suruh bagi je kat sini.
Errr tambi , ko ni dah bercelaru pemikiran ...... temberang banyak sangat
Ko dgn muka tak malu , tak percaya pada hadith , gila2 konfom surah rejam dimakan kambing - semua ni dari rujukkan hadith
Ko pon percaya the impossible , kambing tersebut tetiba mampu makan ingatan para hafazan & hanya Aishah(ra) sorang yg simpan ayat tersebut
Tapi ko dgn kurang cerdik (as usual) pasal ko tak tau Nabi Muhammad(saw) sendiri tak mau ayat rejm dlm Quran spt pos#454 (sis mbhcsf)
It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك
'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Konsep ini dipanggil Naskh dimana Quran sendiri acknowledge , pos#483 (bro redskin)
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten,
but We substitute something better or similar:
Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
(Quran Surah Al Baqarah 2:106.)
Kalo dah Naskh & tak ada dlm Quran lagi , buat apa nak amalkan atau hafal ayat tersebut?
LOL , yg
- buta
- tak tau apa2
- making himself a fool
is just you.
Ko yg sibuk klaim ada ayat rejm dlm Quran based on parchment kena makan kambing , the burden of proof is on you - ko yg cuba jual ubat yg dah expire ko tu.
Ha ha .... bagus punya konar baring , ko yg buat klaim suruh orang lain bagi bukti .... ko betul2 kaki temberang
Pengetahuan tak kemana tapi gah aje lebih
Soalan senang , tunjuk aje ritual solat dlm Quran pon ko terkapai kapai tak mampu jawab tapi mati2 kalim dah jawab tapi masih tak mampu bagi rujukkan jawapan ko tu
Ini org panggil bodoh sombong
Taktik ko senang aje
- konon2 percaya pada hadih ..... Quran dimakan kambing
- tak percaya pada hadith ..... ayat Rejm tersebut (yg kena makan kambing tu lah) tak termasuk dlm Quran pasal Nabi Muhammad(saw) sendiri tak mau tersebut dlm Quran
LOL , ini taktik org kurang cerdik .... either
- you take it 100% , in which ko kena mengaku ayat Quran yg kena makan kambing tu tak ada dlm Quran
or
- leave it 100% in which you have no case
Tak ada .....oooooh aku percaya hadith Quran kena makan kambing tapi tak percaya hadith ayat tersebut tak masuk dlm Quran. Hanya kaki temberang macam ko & geng ko aje yg pakai taktik tersebut ..... taktik bangang
prrftthh..leerr..ingatkan nak bawak mai surah rejam sampai mati tu yang korang claim RAMAI hafal tu kat sini..last2 yillek..pusing keliling main ngan kata2 mullah je...
korang semua ni beriman kepada mullah ke tuhan ni?
sapa tuhan kamu sebenar ni..allah ke,nabi ke mullah2 setan?
dah macam lebih caya kata2 mullah dari kata2 tuhan sendiri
puak belacan ni duk sibuk kata kitab agama lain salah itu ini..dimodify itu ini..quran satu je kekal dipelihara..
alih2 ..quran dia jugak diseleweng tak ori macam diclaim...diguna lak kitab mullah from the future sampai contradict quran dia...
beza kitab "kaper" kononya...diubah di kitab tu sendiri,paderi/olamak ugama depa ubah bible jadi x orikata ummah
kitab mosleem-diubah guna kitab lain(hadis)..kononya dengan alasan alalh buat kitab tak complete...boleh TAMBAH apa jua yang mollah nak sesuka hati je asalakan taruk_nabi kata)..
(lagi teruk dari bible daa..hadis je beribu..tukang tulis tukang verify org sama tak pernah pun jumpa nabi ko tu..just taruk:jual nama nabi,then tada..jadi law)
oh puhleezzzz...pi cermin diri dulu la...sama je agama korang ngan "kaper" tu..sama2 diseleweng..
dah takde bezanya..malah lagi teruk ada..defend gila2 mullah2 sampai terhina quran dan tuhan sendiri dalam tak sedar
suruh bawak mai surah yang RAMAI hafal(seperti diclaim mullah yang nak belit tu) tu pun duk konar situ sini pah la ni...haram takde
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten,
but We substitute something better or similar:
Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things
..ni je?paham ke tak mamat belacan semua ni...subsitute ngan ape wahyu revelations tu?
bab rejam beb..mati lagi tu..ooo..subsitute ngan..surah yang tak wujud2..subsitute ngan "karangan" mullah2 lepas 200 tahun nabi wafat dan quran/revelations berhenti diturunkan..pigi dahh..berbelit belit..
tuahn nak cakap pasal ayat dia tak kan hilang..korang lak claim dimakan kambeng..ambik ayat atas di hadam elok2...dah tuhan kata tak hilang...bak mai surah rejam tu...kita orang nak dengar ni..
duk pong pang agama kitab lain semua dah diseleweng..sokong zakir naik burukkan agama orang lain la..alih2 kena setepek kat dia melatah..prrffthhh
Ha ha ... yg ko bebel tak tentu arah cakap konar baring ni apa hal?
Beriman dgn mullah ni kebodohan apa? Apa yg bercanggah antara Quran & hadith? You are acting out your wet dreams
Ko dgn muka tak malu tu , tak percaya pada hadith tapi rujuk hadith
- mati2 klaim ayat Quran ttg rejm telah dimakan kambing & ko dgn bangangnya percaya kambing tersebut makan ingatan para hafazan & ayat tu satu aje ada pada Aishah(ra)
Tapi ko dgn temberang ko buat tak tau aje (biasak lah) ttg Nabi Muhammad(saw) tak mau ayat tu direkodkan dlm Quran
LOL , in argument temberang dari ko. Isu skg
- kalo ko ambil hadith kambing makan ayat rejm Quran , ko terpaksa terima yg ayat tersebut sudah pon di naskh mengikut hadith : you have no case
- kalo ko tak percaya pada hadith , no issue about ayat Quran dimakan kambing : you have no case
Apa punya bangang ko ni?
Either you take it 100% or leave it 100% - mana satu skg?
Kalo dah tak ada dlm Quran , isn't it a bit silly mintak ayat tersebut
Oh , BTW ..... ko yg buat klaim ..... ko kena bagi bukti ..... pasal apa konar baring mintak org lain bagi bukti?
Dah tak mampu jawab .... its farting thru your mouth ..... prrffthhh
Berjela2 korang gaduh aku nak tanya lobai2 CI beberapa soalan pendek boleh?
Q1: Betul ka ayat rejam mmg wujud tapi manuskripnya telah dimakan kambing?
Q2: Betul ka nabi sendiri yang tak bagi include surah tersebut dalam quran sekarang atau ka Allah sendiri yang revise ayat2 yang dah diturunkan dengan yang lebih baik?
soalan bonus:
Qx: Kenapa Allah tak pelihara kitab2 terdahulu e.g. bible?
Kalo ko muslim , ada kah lobai lobai ni akan mengimamkan sembahyang jenazah pada satu hari yg pasti dtg pada ko?
What would be your stance?
A) Ikut hadith , tersebut terjadi tapi soalan dia (a) adakah kambing tersebut makan ingatan para hafazan Quran (b) satu tu aje ke ayat tersebut?
B) Nabi Muhammad(saw) penerima wahyu. Kalo baginda putuskan tersebut tak patut ada dlm mushaf Quran ..... he is the highest authority , sapa yg boleh lawan?
Bible? Be specific .... OT atau NT atau kedua sekali?
Kalo OT , dah ada jangkaan yg ia akan dikorupkan
- Deut31:25-29 (NIV)
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD:
26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!
28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and arouse his anger by what your hands have made.”
30 And Moses recited the words of this song from beginning to end in the hearing of the whole assembly of Israel:
Ini dikonfom dgn jeremiah8:8
8 “ ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
NT pulak? Mana ada wahyu yg diberikan kepada Jesus
Kesemua buku2 NT
- ditulis oleh orang yg tak dikenali (the gospels)
- yg tak pernah jumpa Jesus (selain dari book of James)
- ditulis ~ 50 thn atau lebih selepas pemergian Jesus
Kalo ko muslim , ada kah lobai lobai ni akan mengimamkan sembahyan ...
Kesemua buku2 NT
- ditulis oleh orang yg tak dikenali (the gospels)
- yg tak pernah jumpa Jesus (selain dari book of James)
- ditulis ~ 50 thn atau lebih selepas pemergian Jesus
Apa pendapat ko skg?
Kahkahkahkah New Testament ditulis oleh orang yang tidak dikenali aka gospels. Kahkahkah...
Woi samdol ko tu bengap dates dengan paraquat pun tak tau beza.
Kahkahkah...GOSPELS ADALAH ORANG YANG TIDAK DI KENALI.
Kalo ko muslim , ada kah lobai lobai ni akan mengimamkan sembahyan ...
ok forget the lobai.
thanks for responding. Now.
A) Ikut hadith , tersebut terjadi tapi soalan dia (a) adakah kambing tersebut makan ingatan para hafazan Quran (b) satu tu aje ke ayat tersebut?
aku bukan team katowjo tapi he has a point dan aku percaya ramai juga nak tau apa jadi pada ayat tersebut yang ada dalam hafazan. Dilupakan?
B) Nabi Muhammad(saw) penerima wahyu. Kalo baginda putuskan tersebut tak patut ada dlm mushaf Quran ..... he is the highest authority , sapa yg boleh lawan?
Post time 13-3-2017 12:07 PM
why not take 645 AD? 
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