IS ALLAH THE GOD OF ABRAHAM?

Debmey

I don't, tell us abt it.
Just because there is a story does not mean it is true. There are stories that says that Pang Gu created the world, does that mean it is true?

Originally posted by snipersnake at 6-1-2005 12:14 PM:
jews=apes and pigs



because they raped and killed so many palestinieans

y the jews never called muslims apes or pigs?

because the muslims dont rape or confiscate their land

but the muslims rape thier own daughter...even here in malaysia...

so are they apes, pigs?

Originally posted by me at 6-1-2005 01:41 PM:



but the muslims rape thier own daughter...even here in malaysia...

so are they apes, pigs?

Lot had s@x with his daughters, so are the apes, pigs?

Priests and clergies have s@x with children while preaching in churches, are they apes, pigs too?

Debmey

Was Lot the ancestor of Jews? Looks like samerosie don't even know what he is talking about. Ahahahahahahahah............................

Originally posted by Debmey at 6-1-2005 02:34 PM:
Was Lot the ancestor of Jews? Looks like samerosie don't even know what he is talking about.

You are definitely extremely daft.  I was quoting 'me".  Looks like Debmey always do not even know what he is talking about.   ahahahahahahah............................

Debmey

Nope, yu were making a statement and I debunked your knowledge.

and since muslism always claim that everyone is responsible for their own sins and  sons shld not carry the sin sof teh father, so how can they hate Jews today for things that was alledgely done by their ancestor slong time ago?
Isn't that a contradiction in Islamic beliefs?

[ Last edited by Debmey on 6-1-2005 at 02:44 PM ]

sukati ko lah labu.

Many North Americans say Allah is Moon God. Europeans say Allah is Yahweh and Jehovah. I say, "so what?". It has no meaning when both sides refuse to live in peace with God's other creation.

Jews are chosen people. Yeah. Chosen to be condemned also. But I believe their punishment period is over. Otherwise, they would not have grow stronger in the face of surrounding sea of aggressions.

Muslims should not have hated the Jews who are the other descendants of their beloved prophet Abraham. It is Abraham's tragedy that non-Arab muslims should help to patch up the clashing brothers. IF indeed Arabs are as they claim the descendants of Ishmael the children of Abraham.

Unfortunately, I do not think Arab and Muslims antipathy of the Jews is because of their holy book. Surely, nobody gives a hoot what the holy book says when they have bigotry. The culprit is their media. From the Nablus Exhibition of Jews being blown apart to staged Jenin massacre funeral. They are full of it. Radicals had given their religion a bad name and the moderates lose it. And it is the powers-that-be that allows it to fester.

Admiral Cheng Ho : Jews are chosen people. Yeah. Chosen to be condemned also. But I believe their punishment period is over. Otherwise, they would not have grow stronger in the face of surrounding sea of aggressions.

:no: Not all Jews agree with you. This is what the Orthodox Jews say: - It is thus that Orthodox Jews have nothing to do with the Zionist ideology or their man made "redemption", but continue to patiently await the Messianic redemption promised by the Biblical Prophets, when, at that time, as we are told, all mankind will recognize the sovereignty of the One Creator, and the words of the Prophet Isaiah will be fulfilled, 揂nd they will beat their sword into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks

And not all Muslims subscribe to your murderous opinion as well. Here's one of the many good muslim:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22446

~a Jewish homeland is even described in the Koran
~And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd,'" the Koran says in 17:104, The Night Journey
~here is no such thing as a 'Palestinian.' There never was. It is a PR fiction, a Madison Avenue fantasy
~the Koran confirms God's covenantal relationship with the Torah, land and people of Israel

This is almost similar to Debmey's thread in World Event board last year. Only people like you woud want to see more bloodshed because they are not your people. You are Chinese! They are Arabs! You may lie about how you felt as muslim brotherhood. Bad Chinese muslim Kennyboy!

[ Last edited by Adm_Cheng_Ho on 7-1-2005 at 03:13 AM ]

Debmey

Not really Admiral, I would consider Kennkid not to be a good muslim but a great one.
The real muslims are the fundies who in the footsteps of Muhamad support lies, dishonesty, human rights abuses and terrorism, just like Kennkid. These are the true Muslims. They will even contradict their silly little Quran in order to advance their evil agenda of destroying Jews and Christians.
These muslims are working for world peace or a salam where everyone in this world agrees and submits to their brand of Islam, and if everyone on earth agrees to one set of beliefs, then they believe, there will be peace on earth.  

The Muslims who corrupt true Islam are the Abdullah Badawi type that wants a somewhat wishy washy Islam, thats why they are called moderates.

peace

[ Last edited by Debmey on 6-1-2005 at 10:17 PM ]

Originally posted by nightlord at 2005-1-5 17:05:
If he is, then all muslims in the world must accept that the jews are the chosen people of Allah.
...

Introduction:
Palestine was predestined by God (Allah Almighty) to be the land from which prophets and messengers took upon their shoulders the banner of monotheism and called upon their people to abide by it.

In its ancient history, Palestine witnessed models of leadership by many prophets and their subsequent command over their people. These prophets waged violent struggles for the sake of fixing the banner of truth on this holy land.

Before plunging into details, it is important to keep in mind the fact that Muslims do believe in all prophets, that Muslims consider the heritage of all prophets as their own, that Muslims consider their Islamic creed as an extension of the creed of the prophets prior to the coming of ISLAM and that the creed for which all prophets previous to Muhammad had called for is the same creed for which prophet Muhammea (peace and blessings be upon him) had called.

Consequently, the stockpile of experience by all of the prophets in their call for truth and God worshipping is not separate or different from the Muslims' call and their stockpile of experience.

Consider the following verse taken from the Holy Qur'an (Surah 16:36) as translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali: For We assuredly sent amongst every people an apostle (with the command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil." It is the creed of oneness to which every messenger had called. When a certain people reject their messenger, they reject all messengers. Consider what God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an:
The people of Noah rejected the apostles (Surah 26:105);
The 'Ad (people) rejected the apostles (Surah 26:123);
The Thamud (people) rejected the apostles (Surah 26:141);
The people of Lut rejected the apostles (Surah 26:160); and
The Companions of the Wood rejected the apostles (Surah 26:176).

When they encounter the contemporary Jewish allegation of their right to Palestine, many historians engage themselves with archaeology and with the people who had settled, ruled or passed through Palestine and how long the rule of each one lasted. They eventually come up with the conclusion that the Jewish dominion over Palestine throughout history was so short in time and limited in place compared with the Arab and Muslim dominion. Although this aspect is very useful in refuting the historical and ideological aspects of the Jewish allegation, many writers and historians, it seems, have committed the following two major mistakes:

1.
To consider the heritage of prophets, which were sent by God to the Jews to rule over them, as a heritage solely for the Jews (this is exactly what the Jews want), and

2.
To abuse the biographies of a number of prophets sent to the Children of Israel by using evidences based on the deviated Torah or the Jews themselves. When they use this reasoning, they intend to show the "shameful behaviour" of the Children of Israel and their leaders once they settled in Palestine in order to degrade the value of their State and to show the decline of their level of civilization. Followers of this method of evidence talk about accusing prophets of cheating, of lying, of adultery and of raping the rights and killing the innocent to prove the cruelty, deceit and meanness of the Jews and to distort their image of rule and dominion at that time.

The Holy Qur'an has sufficiently provided us with the ways to identify the Jewish manners and has warned us regarding their debauchery and immorality. But their prophets and their virtuous followers are something else. Prophets are the best examples of all human beings. They should not be abused and most certainly God Almighty should not be abused. We should not follow the deviated stories of the Children of Israel, which abuse both prophets and God.

The deviated Torah and the Talmud, for instance, say that God (the Most High, Exalted and Great) plays with whales and fish for three hours every day. They also say that He cried over the demolition of the temple till His size was diminished from seven heavens to four heavens, and that earthquakes and hurricanes occur as a result of God's tears, which supposedly fall into the sea in response to the demolished temple. The Holy Qur'an mention their allegations in the following verses: The Jews say:
"God's hand is tied up (Surah 5:64)";
God hath heard the taunt of those who say: "Truly, God is indigent and we are rich! (Surah 3:181)".

The Jews attribute Prophet Jacob with the theft from his father an idol made of gold and with his having wrestled with God(!!) near the city of Nablus, thus he was named Israel. In addition, he has been attributed with offering bribes to his brother, cheating his father and keeping silent regarding the alleged adultery and polytheism of his two daughters. Such things are understandable considering what the Jews say about the rest of prophets.

The Jews have deviated from the Torah or the Old Testament, and they follow the path of the deviated Torah as seen in their manners, debauchery and immorality, under the pretence of what they had attributed falsely and untruly to their prophets. Historians, especially the Muslim ones, should not embark rashly in their search into Palestine's history accusing God's prophets and messengers, as the Jews did in their fabrications, in order to prove other prophets' rights in Palestine.

If the creed-and-faith tie is the ground upon which Muslims of all kinds and colours are united, then Muslims have the priority to hold the heritage of the prophets, including the heritage of the prophets of the Children of Israel. Muslims are still holding the banner already held up by the prophets and are still following their path. All of those prophets were Muslims and believers in the unity of God according to the Qur'anic understanding. Consider the following verse as spoken by God (Almighty) as revealed in the Holy Qur'an:
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to God's (which is ISLAM), and he joined not gods with God. Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Apostle and those who believe: and God is the Protector of those who have faith (Surah 3:67-68), and God Almighty also says:

God (Allah Almighty) had given this land to the Children Israel when they were following the right path of God and when they were representing the nation of monotheism in ancient times. We are not shameful, and we do not hesitate to mention this fact, otherwise, we would contradict expressly the Holy Qur'an. For instance, when Moses (peace be upon him) said to his people:
"O my people! enter the holy land which God hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin (Surah 5:21)".
This legality was linked with the commitment by the Jews for monotheism and conformity with God's method. But, when they rejected to believe in God, disobeyed His messengers, slew His prophets, broke their covenants and oaths, rejected to follow the Islamic creed preached by Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to whom the prophets of Jews had given glad tidings to their people, as mentioned in the following verses:
"Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures), in the Law and the Gospel (Surah 7:157)";
"and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed (Surah LXI:6)";
..they incurred the curse of God and His wrath: "But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard (Surah 5:13)"
匰ay: shall I point out to you something much worse than this (as judged) by the treatment it received from God? Those who incurred the curse of God and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped Evil, these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!.

Therefore, the legality of dominating over the Holy Land was changed to the nation that follows the prophets' methods and carries their banner--the nation of Islam. The question as to who has the legal right to dominate the Holy Land, according to our understanding, is not related to race, kind, or people, it is rather related to who is following the correct method.

To continue discussing the Jewish allegation of their right in Palestine according to the Old Testament provisions, we would refer to what they mentioned in the changed Old Testament of giving this land to Abraham (peace be upon him) and his progeny. It includes the following: "匱he Lord said to Abraham: Leave your land, your tribe, the house of your father and go to the land I am leading you to

Man lived in Palestine since early ancient ages. There are ruins which trace back to the ancient Stone Age (500,000-14,000 BC) and the middle Stone Age (14,000-8000 BC). This age in Palestine is called Al-Natoofieh civilization, attributed to Al-Natoof caves, north of Jerusalem. Al-Natoof origin is not yet known. Their civilization was concentrated on the coast. They lived in caves such as those found on Al-Karmel Mountain.

In the Modern Stone Age (8000-4500 BC) the cave life of man in Palestine was changed to settlements. He changed from food collector to food producer. The first evidence supporting settlement life appeared in Jericho, which is the most ancient city in the world. It was established in 8000 BC.

The Brass Stone Age ran from 4500 BC to 3300 BC. A lot of archaeological civilization locations that trace back to that era were discovered in the Beer Sheba region, between the Hebron mountains and the Dead Sea and along the sea coast of Al-Khudiera.

The beginning of the third millennium BC was characterized with the emergence of the old empires in the east accompanied by the discovery of writing and the start of writing history. From here, historical ages started in Palestine.

The era that extended from 3200 BC to 2000 BC is called the Ancient Bronze Age. It was characterized by the emergence of the fortified defending towns built on high hills.

They were spread out in large numbers, and most of them were built in the middle and north of Palestine. The most important locations were in Bashan, Majideo, Al-Afoula, Ras Al-Nakoura and Tal Al-Farei'a north of Nablus. In the third millennium BC, the population of Palestine increased, and the cities grew and became political and economic powers. This period can be called the period of "small-States of towns."

During the third millennium BC, the Ammonites, the Canaanites and also the Yabousians and the Phoenicians, which are considered sub-branches of the Canaanites, had migrated to settle in Palestine. Their emigration to Palestine was around 2500 BC. The Canaanites settled on the plains of Palestine and the Ammonites settled in the mountains. The Yabousians settled in and around Jerusalem; they built the city of Jerusalem and named it "Yabous" then "Hierosolyma". The Phoenicians settled on the north coast of Palestine and in Lebanon.

Reliable historians believe that the Ammonites, the Canaanites, the Yabousians and the Phoenicians had come from the Arab peninsula and that the majority of the current population of Palestine, especially the villagers, are the offspring of those old tribes and peoples or the Arab and Muslims who settled there after the Muslim Conquest.

During that period, the emigration of the Canaanites took place on a large scale. They became the original population of the country. The name of "Land of Canaan" was the oldest name to which the land of Palestine had been known. The Canaanites built most of the towns in Palestine. Their number-within the borders of the current Palestine-was more than 200 towns during the second millennium BC, hundred of years before the coming of the HebraiJews. In addition to Jericho and Jerusalem, there were other old towns, namely Shechem (Balatah, Nablus), Bashan, Ashkelon, Akka, Haifa, Hebron, Ashdod, A'aqur, Beer Sheba and Bethlehem.

After that time, the Middle Bronze Age followed from 2000 BC to 1550 BC. The first half of the second millennium BC witnessed the dominion of the Hyksos, who ruled Palestine during the eighteenth to sixteenth centuries BC. It seems that during this age (around 1900 BC), Abraham (peace be upon him) came to Palestine accompanied by his nephew "Lut" (peace be upon him) and there, Isma'il, Isaac and Jacob (peace be upon them) were born.

The Late Bronze Age (1550 BC-1200 BC) started with the withdrawal of the Hyksos dominion from Palestine and the subsequent control by the absolute Egyptian regime. As to the Iron Age (1200 BC-330 BC), it seems that in its early period (approximately 1200 BC), Palestine had received groups of emigrants who came from various regions, the most important ones were "the peoples of the sea" migrations. It seems that they came from western Asia and from islands of the Aegean Sea (Crete and others). At the beginning, those peoples launched their attacks against the coasts of Syria and Egypt, but Ramses the Third, Pharaoh of Egypt, drove them away from his country in the Blouzioun battle (near Port Said) and gave them permission to settle in the southern part of Palestine. In the archeological inscriptions, the name of "PLST" was mentioned and, accordingly, those peoples were called "Palestians" and then the letter "n" was inserted in their name (maybe because of the plural). So they became the "Palestinians". The Palestinians built five kingdoms, including the cities of Gaza, Ashdod, Jet, Aqroun and Ashkelon. These cities were possibly ancient Canaanites, and they expanded and organized them and built two new cities, namely Lod and Saklash. They occupied the rest of the coast up to the Al-Karmel Mountains. Then they captured Marj Ibn Amir. The Palestinians soon mixed with the Canaanites, used their language and worshipped their gods (Dajoun, B'al and Ashtar). Although the Palestinians had been mixed with the people, they gave this land their name, so, it was called Palestine.

It is apparent from the comparative historical indications that Moses (peace be upon him) led the Children of Israel towards the Holy Land in the second half of the thirteenth century BC, i.e. in the Late Bronze Age. This Age and the Early Iron Age witnessed the beginning of the Jews entering Palestine and the emergence of the Kingdom of David and Solomon (peace be upon them) between 1004 BC and 923 BC. This period was divided into two kingdoms: the Israel Kingdom (923 BC-722 BC) and the Judah Kingdom (923 BC-586 BC). Each one ruled over a limited part of the land of Palestine. From 730 BC, Palestine, in general, was under the Assyrian dominion, which came from Iraq, till 645 BC. Thereafter, the Babylonians were the successors in dominion till 539 BC. The Assyrians and the Babylonians exchanged the domination over Palestine with Egypt. Then, the Persians invaded Palestine and ruled it from 539 BC to 332 BC. After that, Palestine entered the Greek Hellenistic Age. It was ruled by the Ptolemaics till 198 BC and was followed by Seleucias till 64 BC, at which time the Romans came and dominated over Palestine. After the division of the Roman Empire, Palestine was still influenced by the Eastern Roman Empire "Roman State", with Constantinople as its capital. Thereafter, the Muslim Conquest took place and gave it its Arab-Islamic character.

[ Last edited by Terong Pipit on 6-1-2005 at 03:14 PM ]

The mission of truth and the tour of prophets in the Holy Land

Abraham (peace be upon him), was the first of the Prophets whom we know lived and died in Palestine. He is the father of all Prophets, as many prophets descended from his offspring, including Prophets Isaac, Jacob, Joseph (Yousef), Isma'il and Muhammad (peace be upon them).

According to traditions, Abraham (peace be upon him), was born in Orr in Iraq and lived there for a period of time. He destroyed idols, called for monotheism and faced Al-Namroud with evidence. They tried to burn him at the stake as a punishment for destroying the idols, but God Almighty made it cool and a means of safety for him. Abraham migrated with his nephew Lut for the sake of God: He said: "I will go to my Lord. He will surely guide me (Surah 37:99)."

It seems that Abraham in the beginning migrated with his companions to Harran (Al-Raha), which is presently located to the south of Turkey and north of Syria. From there, he migrated to the land of Canaan (Palestine). God Almighty says: "But we delivered him and Lut (and directed them) to the land which we have blessed for the nations." Historians estimate that his arrival in Palestine was around 1900 BC. This date for the ancient history of Iraq represented the end of the "Third Orr" reign, which was ruled by the Samaritans and the beginning of the old Babylon era in which the Semitic elements that came from the Arabian Peninsula (Ammonites) prevailed.

Abraham (peace be upon him), dwelled in "Shechem" near Nablus. From there, he moved towards Ramallah and Jerusalem, passing through Hebron and then Beer Sheba, where he settled for some time. He then departed for Egypt. He returned from Egypt accompanied by Hajar. She was presented to him as a gift by the Egyptian leader. It was also mentioned that she was the daughter of Pharaoh or an Egyptian princess. Then he returned to Palestine and passed through Gaza, where he met Abu Malek, the Emir of Gaza. Then he moved between Beer Sheba and Hebron. Thereafter, he ascended to Jerusalem. Lut (peace be upon him) moved to the south of the Dead Sea as he was sent by God as an apostle to the people of that region, while Abraham remained in the mountains of Jerusalem and Hebron. Isma'il (peace be upon him) was born to Abraham from his wife Hajar. Thirteen years later, Isaac was born to Abraham from his wife Sarah. It seems that Abraham's sons were born while he was in his old age. This we know from the following verse of the Holy Qur'an, spoken by Sarah: She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? (Surah 11:72)"

It seems that Abraham (peace be upon him) visited the Hejaz many times. He brought Isma'il and his mother Hajar to Mecca. The story of Hajar running back and forth between the Safa and the Marwa hills and the gushing out of the Zamzam water is well known. Then Abraham returned and built the Ka'ba with Isma'il: And remember, Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing (Surah 2:127)." However, the place of settlement of Abraham remained Palestine, where he died and was buried in Al-Makfeelah cave near Hebron, which is the city named after his name (peace be upon him). It is said that his age was 175 years.

Abraham (peace be upon him) was contemporaneous with Jerusalem's ruler "Malaki Sadeq", who seemed to be a monotheist and a friend of his. At that time, the believers in God were very few. Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) related that Abraham said to his wife Sarah after he had visited one of the powerful people at that time: "There are no believers on earth except for you and myself." This apparently happened when they went to Egypt. This can be concluded from the verse of God Almighty: Abraham was indeed a model (Ummat: Nation), devoutly obedient to God (Surah 16:120)

The mission of truth and the tour of prophets in the Holy Land

Abraham (peace be upon him), was the first of the Prophets whom we know lived and died in Palestine. He is the father of all Prophets, as many prophets descended from his offspring, including Prophets Isaac, Jacob, Joseph (Yousef), Isma'il and Muhammad (peace be upon them).

According to traditions, Abraham (peace be upon him), was born in Orr in Iraq and lived there for a period of time. He destroyed idols, called for monotheism and faced Al-Namroud with evidence. They tried to burn him at the stake as a punishment for destroying the idols, but God Almighty made it cool and a means of safety for him. Abraham migrated with his nephew Lut for the sake of God: He said: "I will go to my Lord. He will surely guide me (Surah 37:99)."

It seems that Abraham in the beginning migrated with his companions to Harran (Al-Raha), which is presently located to the south of Turkey and north of Syria. From there, he migrated to the land of Canaan (Palestine). God Almighty says: "But we delivered him and Lut (and directed them) to the land which we have blessed for the nations." Historians estimate that his arrival in Palestine was around 1900 BC. This date for the ancient history of Iraq represented the end of the "Third Orr" reign, which was ruled by the Samaritans and the beginning of the old Babylon era in which the Semitic elements that came from the Arabian Peninsula (Ammonites) prevailed.

Abraham (peace be upon him), dwelled in "Shechem" near Nablus. From there, he moved towards Ramallah and Jerusalem, passing through Hebron and then Beer Sheba, where he settled for some time. He then departed for Egypt. He returned from Egypt accompanied by Hajar. She was presented to him as a gift by the Egyptian leader. It was also mentioned that she was the daughter of Pharaoh or an Egyptian princess. Then he returned to Palestine and passed through Gaza, where he met Abu Malek, the Emir of Gaza. Then he moved between Beer Sheba and Hebron. Thereafter, he ascended to Jerusalem. Lut (peace be upon him) moved to the south of the Dead Sea as he was sent by God as an apostle to the people of that region, while Abraham remained in the mountains of Jerusalem and Hebron. Isma'il (peace be upon him) was born to Abraham from his wife Hajar. Thirteen years later, Isaac was born to Abraham from his wife Sarah. It seems that Abraham's sons were born while he was in his old age. This we know from the following verse of the Holy Qur'an, spoken by Sarah: She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? (Surah 11:72)"

It seems that Abraham (peace be upon him) visited the Hejaz many times. He brought Isma'il and his mother Hajar to Mecca. The story of Hajar running back and forth between the Safa and the Marwa hills and the gushing out of the Zamzam water is well known. Then Abraham returned and built the Ka'ba with Isma'il: And remember, Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing (Surah 2:127)." However, the place of settlement of Abraham remained Palestine, where he died and was buried in Al-Makfeelah cave near Hebron, which is the city named after his name (peace be upon him). It is said that his age was 175 years.

Abraham (peace be upon him) was contemporaneous with Jerusalem's ruler "Malaki Sadeq", who seemed to be a monotheist and a friend of his. At that time, the believers in God were very few. Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) related that Abraham said to his wife Sarah after he had visited one of the powerful people at that time: "There are no believers on earth except for you and myself." This apparently happened when they went to Egypt. This can be concluded from the verse of God Almighty: Abraham was indeed a model (Ummat: Nation), devoutly obedient to God (Surah 16:120)

Debmey

After all the cut and paste from TP, he still can't answer my questions.

nightlord

Well forumners who cut and paste such a long article seldom think.

Cat's got their tongue/fingers as they have no opinion of their own.lol


nightlord

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Originally posted by samerosie at 6-1-2005 02:40 PM:


You are definitely extremely daft.  I was quoting 'me".  Looks like Debmey always do not even know what he is talking about.   ahahahahahahah............................

and i was quoting snipersnake....

btw according to him they are...