Has the Quran been altered?

snipersnake

dia tak tahu apa2..tapi berlagak mcam tau semua..kesian dia

sakinahmawaddah

There is another school for those how are submitted themselves in memorizing Al Quran, in Darul Quran located at Ampang Pecah, near Kuala Kubu Baru. The truth is always out there.

Debmey

and muslims still cannot answer the questions concerning the authenticity of the quran.

they just ran away.

snipersnake

Originally posted by Debmey at 11-1-2005 09:45 PM:
and muslims still cannot answer the questions concerning the authenticity of the quran.

they just ran away.

and debmey still cant tell me the original language of the bible

we answered but u refuse to accept..your loss..not ours

Debmey

we asked first. besides, this thread is abt quran, not the bible.
It just shows that muslims tak boleh stand by their quran and try to detract from the issue.

cheers

DivinePonytail

Just want to say this is my first post in this forum.

With that said, (if i may Debmey) i want to answer thwe question by snipersnake abt the origian language of the bible. (Corect me if im wrong here)

As you know the Bible consist of the OT and the NT.
   The OT consists of 39 books written from 1500 BC to 400 BC mostly in Biblical Hebrew. Aramaic was used in a limited way in some texts.
   While the NT  consists of 27 books written from 33 AD to 70 or 90 AD mostly written in Koine Greek.

Doest that answer your question?

nightlord

Well asna I am seldom bitter about the Quran, as it plays no part in my life.

But I find it sad that muslims perpetuate untruths or half truths to the world and sadly to themselves and say,

this is the truth when it is far from it.

sakinahmawaddah

Nop, the Quran has not been altered. How the Quran been written has clearly explain by others.
The prove is the perfect balance of words in Quran. It is more than 1400 thousand years after the Prophet now, and it is still perfect.
How to prove the prefectness of the words. Just read what Quran said,

"This a scripture whose verses are perfected and then expounded." (11:1)

Which tells that there are no wasted words in the Qur'an; that each verse is perfected and then it is explained. It could not be in a better form. One could not use fewer words to say the same thing or if one uses more words one would only be adding superfluous information. For example, when Quran mentioned

"The likeness of Jesus before Allah is as the likeness of Adam." (3:59)

so what is the indicator that this words/sentence has been perfected and then expounded?

This verse goes on to explain how that is true because they both came under unusual circumstances rather than having a mother and a father in the usual human reproductive way. (This is the meaning of the verse)

but also the verse mentioned that Jesus = Adam, how come they were equal. This question arise to prove perfected words in Quran. So, this ur homework again! Just refer to the index of the Quran, now you will see that the word Isa (Jesus), we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. When we look up Adam, we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. The point is that they are very much alike in this book. They are equated. And then again there are so many example in the Quran related to this matter.
But remember, the index has been made available only since 1945.

So if the words has been altered or changed or added as u used the example of playing the whispering game, some of the words might has been missed, or some of the sentences has been added, so that the sentences will no longer perfect and profound!!!!

My point is clear; the perfect balance of words in the Qur'an, have come to light only in this generation, anybody who would have lost the portion of this book, hidden some of it, or added some of their own would have been unaware of this carefully hidden code in the book. They would have destroyed this perfect balance.
So the question is back to u, how then the Quran been altered as you claim???? As the whispering games????

It is interesting to note too that, well, such a thing might be possible to organize today by the use of a computer to coordinate all words so that whatever thought you might have as to a meaning of a sentence or however you might construe an equation out of a sentence, you could check for yourself and the book will always have the balance of words.

And the challenge is on u, the non-believers, as stated in the Quran,
"Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies." (4:82).

So, give only one inconsistencies occur in the Quran, after u have find one, only then we have the case!!!!

Then you think again, how come illeterate person, passed word that he has memorised by heart, to his disciple that also most of them lleterate and also remember by heart, will do so much perfect job and still maitaining this "perfect" things up to 1400 years!!!! Mmmm, so much to think ya.

May Allah Guide us always closer to the truth.

(reference: Dr Gary Miller)

Debmey

From the above cut and paste in ndefence of the authenticity of the quran, we can nsee nhow silly muslim sare.

The prove is the perfect balance of words in Quran. It is more than 1400 thousand years after the Prophet now, and it is still perfect.
How to prove the prefectness of the words. Just read what Quran said,

"This a scripture whose verses are perfected and then expounded." (11:1)

So you are saying that the quran is proven to be perfect just because the quran itself says so? Thats what i call circular reasoning, which makes muslim claim totally invalid.

Which tells that there are no wasted words in the Qur'an; that each verse is perfected and then it is explained. It could not be in a better form. One could not use fewer words to say the same thing or if one uses more words one would only be adding superfluous information. For example, when Quran mentioned

Rubbish. The quran is full of repetitions that serve no purpose, so how can it claim to not be able to use fewer words?

"The likeness of Jesus before Allah is as the likeness of Adam." (3:59)

so what is the indicator that this words/sentence has been perfected and then expounded?

This verse goes on to explain how that is true because they both came under unusual circumstances rather than having a mother and a father in the usual human reproductive way. (This is the meaning of the verse)

rubbish, that verse says nothing abt birth.
Adam could not have been similar to Jesus. Adam was made from dust while Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy spirit. They could not have been more distinct from one another when it comes to birth.

but also the verse mentioned that Jesus = Adam, how come they were equal.

They are not equal. Adam sinned while Jesus walked sinless.
Adam died while Jesus was raised from the dead.
Adam did not perform any miracles while Jesus did.

This question arise to prove perfected words in Quran. So, this ur homework again! Just refer to the index of the Quran, now you will see that the word Isa (Jesus), we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. When we look up Adam, we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. The point is that they are very much alike in this book. They are equated. And then again there are so many example in the Quran related to this matter.
But remember, the index has been made available only since 1945.

I did a quick check on the quran.
The name Jesus appeared 60 times.
The name Adam appeared 47 times.
Muslims are always playing number tricks with their quran with the unsuspecting. They did it for the term 'days' and other stuff and they always get exposed by me.

It is interesting to note too that, well, such a thing might be possible to organize today by the use of a computer to coordinate all words so that whatever thought you might have as to a meaning of a sentence or however you might construe an equation out of a sentence, you could check for yourself and the book will always have the balance of words.

I just did and i prove yu a liar.

And the challenge is on u, the non-believers, as stated in the Quran,
"Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies." (4:82).

So, give only one inconsistencies occur in the Quran, after u have find one, only then we have the case!!!!

Here's one.
Sura 18:86 Until when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a People. We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness."

I have done me research. The sun never sets in a murky spring.
The Quran contradicts science, it is invalidated.

Then you think again, how come illeterate person, passed word that he has memorised by heart, to his disciple that also most of them lleterate and also remember by heart, will do so much perfect job and still maitaining this "perfect" things up to 1400 years!!!! Mmmm, so much to think ya.

Two things to contend. Mohd could not have been illiterate as he was a trader who had to read Arabic alphabets for numbers in those days.
There is also no proof that Mohd was the full author of the Quran. The first corroborated evidence of the Quran came about only more than 200 years after Mohd died. Even Muslims admit that the Quran was not compiled during the time of Mohd's death.

snipersnake

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 12-1-2005 05:25 AM:
Just want to say this is my first post in this forum.

With that said, (if i may Debmey) i want to answer thwe question by snipersnake abt the origian language of the bible. (Corect me if im wron ...

but jesus spoke aramaic

teh only waay 2 prevent
this quarel from
going around like round about
is to determine which holy book is the real one
& which one is nothing but lies!!!!!

can u dooooo tahtt??

nightlord

can u doo that
lol

DARSITA

Nope. No one can because just about everyone thinks their book is right and that抯 it.

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by snipersnake at 13-1-2005 01:41 PM:


but jesus spoke aramaic

   The best language to convey the words of God's Word at the time that the New Testament was written was Greek not Aramaic, since Greek was the universal, international language at that time. And indeed the gospel was spread throughout the known world with the aid of copies of the books of the New Testament in koine Greek.
   Besides. God does not have a language - His thoughts transcend man's language and are able to be communicated to the mind of man in any language. We are not lacking anything if we try to comprehend what God has to say in any language.

Cheers

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by DARSITA at 14-1-2005 06:28 AM:
Nope. No one can because just about everyone thinks their book is right and that抯 it.

I agree here with Darsita. So unless God tell us directly from the heavens  whick book is right, we have to believe our own book (Quran or Holy Bible) is the word of God. Thats called faith.
   However we might able to prove which book has been altered or not. Probably by examining the non-biblical/historical or archeological evidence.

nightlord

:tq::tq:Hear Hear for Darsita

Simple logic is just so powerful.

Nobody on earth should claim that truth can only be seen through the eyes of the beholder.

ashna

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 14-1-2005 08:30 AM:


I agree here with Darsita. So unless God tell us directly from the heavens  whick book is right, we have to believe our own book (Quran or Holy Bible) is the word of God. Thats called faith.
  ...

no point, non believers always have ways to say otherwise whether you have proof or not. can we just mind our own faith and not bitching about other's faith?i don't understand why debmey m e so bitter about islam? why are they afraid of islam? are they in denial?

sakinahmawaddah

From Debmey
Adam could not have been similar to Jesus. Adam was made from dust while Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy spirit. They could not have been more distinct from one another when it comes to birth.
They are not equal. Adam sinned while Jesus walked sinless.
Adam died while Jesus was raised from the dead.
Adam did not perform any miracles while Jesus did.

What are the evidence to support your claim Debmey? It is because you say so, it will mean that way. I'm too will claim you do the circular reasoning, which make your claim will be invalid. And as you always ask for the proves, then give us the prove. Don抰 tell me you get all of these from the Bible, caused it will go around and around without any fullstop.


The Quran was finalised 70 years after the death of Muhammad.
This is your charge, but can you tell me the source where you get this information and why you believe this statement is absolute true to make your claim?

The Quran is full of repetitions that serve no purpose.
How can u say this for sure? One time before the science and technology come to light, the Quran tell us how the mountain act as peg. At that time, this information to them will serve no purpose. Many facts mentioned in the Qur抋n have been discovered in the last few centuries. But science has not advanced to a level where it can confirm every statement of the Qur抋n. Suppose 80% of all that is mentioned in the Qur抋n has been proved 100% correct. About the remaining 20%, science makes no categorical statement, since it has not advanced to a level, where it can either prove or disprove these statements or in this case tell us the repetitions serve distinct purpose. With the limited knowledge that we have, I rather not use the sentence.
But your allegation is now proven false, caused you can抰 answer how the hidden code in the Quran find it ways only in this so called modern years. What are the hidden code, let me give u more example, when Quran mentioned the word 搈onth

ashna

well said sakinah, but i;m pretty sure debmey will always come and say otherwise. that guy is a nutcase. he can't accept islam but he goes on and on bitching about it as if he's in denial and can't accept the truthfullness of islam.

nightlord

No I think most muslims are in denial.

GOD/ALLAH gave you a brain -  but you guys seldom use it.

For example, you admit MO was a trader. Tell me which trader can do business if he cannot record any of his stocks or purchases.

You can easily try it yourself, buy and sell for 3 months but dont record anything..........:cak:

So how can he be an illiterate.

He wont be able to read syariah laws, and only believe what people tell him, even if they are lies, he wont know.