Rebirth - What is it?

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by muchomike at 10-6-2005 15:02:
ariyamusafir:   Post on 8-6-2005 08:27 PM
The Buddha tought rebirth is not to scare people. What Buddha teaches is about Truths, NOT using lies to make people to be good.

I agree tha ...

The explaination on rebirth which I posted above I typed from a pamphlete. Anyway, Rebirth is not scare tactic. The Kamma of those who achieve Nibbana comes to an end in their that very last life be it good or bad kamma.

Sephiroth

I asked you simple, easy to understand questions and you give me crap. Read properly and answer accordingly.

[qoute]
My questions is simple one :

1. Do you accept the notion of Karma? What you sow will be reap by you as well? Yes or No.

2. Do you accept Rebirth? That you will face judgement for your karma in the next rebirth. Yes or No.

Thank You. [/Qoute]

I asked you simple, easy to understand questions and you give me crap. Read properly and answer accordingly.

Heh!!! You are really kurang ajar!!!
I find that sort of 'ordering' extremely rude!!
I have told you off on such rudeness before
in the other forum before and you do not seem to understand.

Can you understand simple English!!!!

I said,

On your Yes/No questions, at this point in time i do not want to discuss with you on a one to one basis. I do not find your attitude conducive for one-to-one discussion.

Isn't that clear enough........
looks like you are still in kindergarten.....

Learn up some manners from here to grow up.
http://www.mannersinternational.com/2004_Products.asp

vixen

Is there any irrefutable undeniable evidence for rebirth or the 'cycle of consciousness'? .

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by muchomike at 11-6-2005 13:08:
I asked you simple, easy to understand questions and you give me crap. Read properly and answer accordingly.

Heh!!! You are really kurang ajar!!!
I find that sort of 'ordering' ex ...

Brother, relax. dah biasalah. Other forumers such as Adm, and few more also sudah rasa lah. Ada a few which do not want to fight, Few who want to fight such as Adm and cclee and few, will retaliate only when being hit such as me. Relax lah brader

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by vixen at 11-6-2005 15:15:
Is there any irrefutable undeniable evidence for rebirth or the 'cycle of consciousness'? .

In Buddhism, the Buddha did not ask his followers and the world to Come and Believe. In Buddhism, we are asked to Come and SEE!

vixen

Originally posted by ariyamusafir at 2005-6-11 07:03 PM:
In Buddhism, the Buddha did not ask his followers and the world to Come and Believe. In Buddhism, we are asked to Come and SEE!

So,have YOU made careful investigation and verified everything Buddha taught before dedicating yourself to Buddhism!? Since Buddha himself (as you pointed out here) discouraged anyone from just following his words or believing anything merely on blind faith or on the basis of tradition.

As to Rebirth specifically,have you or anybody else verified it? Has anybody verified that the heavens and hells exist,with denizens in them who got reborn there from elsewhere (like our realm)?

[ Last edited by vixen on 11-6-2005 at 10:07 PM ]

Sephiroth

by muchomike
       

Heh!!! You are really kurang ajar!!!
I find that sort of 'ordering' extremely rude!!
I have told you off on such rudeness before
in the other forum before and you do not seem to understand.


So the answer is NO in both cases.

You don't accept the notion of Karma and you don't accept Rebirth. Thank You very much. ;)

Vixen: Is there any irrefutable undeniable evidence for rebirth or the 'cycle of consciousness'? .

I shall answer based on Rebirth as Cycle of Consciousness.

As Posted Earlier
Buddhist meditation teachers suggest that through careful observation of the mind, it is possible to see consciousness as being a sequence of conscious moments rather a continuum of awareness.
Each moment is an experience of an individual mind-state: a thought, a memory, a feeling, a perception.
A mind-state arises, exists and, being impermanent, ceases following which the next mind-state arises.
Thus the consciousness of a sentient being can be seen as a continuous series of birth and death of these mind-states.


Instead of seeking external irrefutable undeniable evidence, one can assess and verify the above birth, death and rebirth of one's own mind states.

Let's take our waking consciousness. When we sleep our 'waking' consciousness dies and reborn again when we wake up. In between sleep and rewaking we may have birth and death of 'dream' consciousness.

In our waking consciousness, we have birth, death and rebirth of other mind-state like anger, jealousies, sadness, happiness, etc.. These states have their life cycles involving birth and death. We do not feel happy all the time. Sometimes one feel happy, sad then happy, and sad, and so on.. These states will last from short instance to longer periods.

Accepting rebirth as cycle of consciousness have a postive outlook.
The Buddha said all these states are impermanent.
Therefore when we encounter any sadness due to grief, etc. Buddhist mindfulness will tell you that the sadness will die or end in time.
Ignorant people could be drag into the sadness whirlpool into depression, suicide and physical death.
It is the same for happiness. From the Buddhist thinking, one need to anticipate that all happiness will have an ending i.e. death. All those who try to crave and attached to long lasting happiness will soon face dissappointments.

The Buddha said that all these states are 'empty', they are not absolute but only transitionary.

When we realize or are 'awakened' that they are 'empty' of absolute meanings, we will not cling, crave or attached to it. When we detached, we are free from the psychological bondage the cycle of  birth, death and rebirth.
Awaken do not meant know by knowledge, but it must be accompanied with the neural capabilities to execute it.
Knowing the theory of 'how to fly a plane' is different from actually flying it in the air.

Do a proper self-pyschoanalysis of your feelings and state of mind and you will see it birth, death and rebirth.
Have you experienced jealousy before?
Jealousy is a necessary emotion but not the extend of being a green-eyed monster.
How did it arise (birth) and how did it go way (die).
How did it reappear. (rebirth)
Did it have a negative impact on your life?
How to prevent it from spoiling your mood? Practice Miindfulness.

Jon Kabat Zinn a famous Psychiatrist uses Buddhist mindfulness to promote health. Whilst he did not mentioned birth, death and rebirth, the essence of it is in his methods.
http://www.mindfulnesstapes.com/

Here is one interesting concept on "Rebirth" extracted from
Patrick Kearney's Freedom and Bondage.

"
Consequently they, like Sati, misunderstood the teaching regarding
rebirth. Assuming in-dependent existence, they thought rebirth meant
beings are reborn, and struggled with the teaching of inter-dependent
arising.
"


http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/genbud/freedom.zip

*******************quote
The Buddha believed in and taught rebirth, which he had directly
verified by means of his own perception.(141) The problem of rebirth is
bound up with that of personal continuity over time, which in turn is
bound up with that of identity; the entities who endure over time, who
experience the results of their actions and who are rebom from life to
life.

My tendency to identify with and own experience manifests most
strongly in my determination to identify with consciousness, which is
the "unbroken stream" providing the link between one life and
another,(142) and between one moment and another. Questions of rebirth
and identity are bound up with notions of "my" consciousness.

The Buddha had great difficulty in countering his students' tendency to
identify with consciousness. For example, after a discussion on the
"food" (ahara) or support of beings, Venerable Moliya-Phagguna asked:
"Bhante, who is supported by the consciousness support?"

..........cont........


Note that the Buddha is not denying the existence of the future: there
is "further becoming and birth in the future". What he is denying is
the one who thinks he endures from past to future. But there were many
students who could not grasp this distinction - students like Venerable Sati:

At that time a bhikkhu called Sati, a fisherman's son, came to this
evil conclusion: "I understand the teaching taught by the Blessed One
to be this: it is this very consciousness and not any other that
continuously moves [samsarati] and runs along".

Like Moliya-Phagguna, Sati identifies with consciousness, believing
that he is the one who senses, recognises, creates and cognises, and is
ultimately reborn. "His" body will die, but "his" stream of
consciousness will go on to rebirth. When the Buddha heard of Sati's
belief he summoned and questioned him:

"What is this consciousness, Sati?"

"It is this very one who speaks and senses, Bhante, who experiences the
result of actions whether good or bad."

"You stupid man, to whom do you think I teach this teaching in such a
way?
Have I not said in many ways that consciousness is
interdependently arisen?
That other than from a condition there is no arising of consciousness?
You not only slander me by your own misunderstanding, but you also destroy yourself and create a great deal of demerit which will bring you harm and suffering for a long time."(144)

The severity of the Buddha's reaction to this wrong view indicates it
must have been very common.
Rebirth occurs but no-one is reborn: this is a paradox that cannot be resolved by philosophical thought, only by directly seeing the arising and cessation of one's own mind-body process.(145)
It was Siddhartha Gotama's full realisation of this process that turned him into Sakyamuni Buddha, and it was Venerable Kondanna's glimpse of it during the Buddha's first sermon that turned him into an noble one:

While he delivered this teaching the stainless and passion-free
dhamma-eye arose for Venerable Kondanna: Whatever is of the nature to
arise, all that is of the nature to cease.(146)

Those of the Buddha's students who did not have this insight - who were
not at least stream-enterers - necessarily assumed that someone is reborn.

Lacking direct insight, they remained fixated on the ordinary,
everyday world of enduring entities indicated by conventional language.

Consequently they, like Sati, misunderstood the teaching regarding
rebirth. Assuming in-dependent existence, they thought rebirth meant
beings are reborn, and struggled with the teaching of inter-dependent
arising.
**************unquote

See the full article for the whole picture.
Apply Kalama Sutta.

Wouldn抰 it be wonderful if we could remember our past lives?
Can you?
Quite frankly you can抰 unless you belong to the few who have exceptional abilities.
And that seems to be the reason why people can抰 accept the idea of rebirth.
There are also people who accept rebirth and go to great  lengths trying to prove it by finding people who seem to recall something of that sort.
Again they are few and far in between and when their  recollections should be creditable some flaw or other  invariably creeps in and spoils the fun so to speak.
So is there rebirth?
I have seen obviously staunch devotees asking this  question and getting the same knowing nod over and over again without further comment.
Certainly we are in the position to make a good case for it.
At least we know that twins joined together and clones have different personalities. The have the same genes and the same environmental exposure

deleted double posting.

[ Last edited by muchomike on 20-6-2005 at 11:57 AM ]

Alwin, I agree with most your views except below which i need some elaboration.

At death  the mental formations have lost the substrate of their original body. Since energy is never lost they  relink with the consciousness of the next compatible body and form the reading frame for its next conscious impulse.
The unborn baby  sleeps 24 hours a day.  You can抰 relink   in the womb until  the waking state with its cyclic impulses allows that.


"next compatible body" appears to be very 'humanly'  intentional. Something like a 'dead' coconut detached from its mother tree and floating in the ocean to seek a compatible beach to take root.

Personally I am not comfortable with the concept of rebirth and live on earth is very complex.

I would view death and energy as follows.
Take the example of a river.
A river exists as long as there are water flowing continuosly.
A river 'die' when the water stop flowing.
The final potential energies in the water of the dying river do not find a compatible river to flow.
The  energy(water) instead gets evaporated, flow into the ocean ultimately and the H20 are eventually thinly spread over the earth and some may end up in other rivers.

Human consciousness is like a river, the consciousness exists as long as the machinery, i.e. body-brain-mind is active, then  consciousness flows. Once the machinery stop working then consciousness is no more and the physical energies dissapate as usual.

I do agree that whatever action one takes in his/her lifetime do have an impact on his/her living future and the future of humanity due to the principle of dependent origination.
Example, the river while it is actively flowing, it would have a great impact on the earth and people. The river fertlize the soil when floods, provide water, and the whole gamuts of its effect of live on earth. However it stops impacting when it die. Whatever it had impacted in its past will continue into the future with the attached history.

Just one view. Apply Kalama Sutta.

You can only make life as complex as you want it to be.
Think energy dynamics and all your birth, waking, sleeping, death and rebirth are simply behavioral states. No more no less. LOL.
How to make it more comfortable?
A good start is to see.
But if Kalama takes you only so far and you are a third party to the action  it doesnt really help because you miss out on the action so to speak.
If you can try you must go into it and not just see.
Brain activity can only go up and down so many times a second.
When it goes up it is in closed phase, you are conscious and experience your empirical self.
When it goes down it is in open phase. There is no self. Unconditioned.
You are not actually dead every 30 milliseconds per second.
But your mental formations are interacting and interpenetrating in a Hua Yan type of Indra Net.
If you can hold in this phase you are actually in nirvana or visankhara or whatever you like to call it.
It's what the Daoists call the usefulness of the wheel is in the space between the spokes.
Sounds simple?
Can it be done?
The Buddha says so.
And understanding rebirth is part of the game.
The same principles apply. Whether it's to go in or out.

ariyamusafir

Below is a comparison on rebirth in Buddhism and Hindusm.

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/dh_main22.htm

BUDDHISM AND HINDUISM COMPARED

The word "Samsara" means literally "continuing on", "wandering on". It signifies the repetitive cycle of birth, ageing, death and rebirth.
Now though Buddhism and Hinduism share the concept of rebirth, the Buddhist concept differs in details from the Hindu doctrine. The doctrine of rebirth as understood in Hinduism involves a permanent soul, a conscious entity which transmigrates from one body to another. The soul inhabits a given body and at death, the soul casts that body off and goes on to assume another body. The famous Hindu classic, the Bhagavad Gita, compares this to a man who might take off one suit of clothing and put on another. The man remains the same but the suits of clothing are different. In the same way the soul remains the same but the psycho-physical organism it takes up differs from life to life.

The Buddhist term for rebirth in Pali is "punabbhava" which means "again existence". Buddhism sees rebirth not as the transmigration of a conscious entity but as the repeated occurrence of the process of existence. There is a continuity, a transmission of influence, a causal connection between one life and another. But there is no soul, no permanent entity which transmigrates from one life to another.

[ Last edited by ariyamusafir at 15-8-2005 03:16 AM ]

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by muchomike at 10-6-2005 03:02 PM
Rebirth is different and can be explained in this way.
Take away the notion of a soul or a being living inside the body; takeaway all ideas of self existing either inside or outside the body.
Also take away notions of past, present and future; in fact take away all notions of time.
Now, without reference to time and self, there can be no before orafter, no beginning or ending, no birth or death, no coming or going.
Yet there is life!
Rebirth is the experience of life in the moment, without birth,without death; it is the experience of life which is neither eternalnor subject to annihilation...

tickmeoff... can you explain this more detail?

I`m bit lost here

SONofODIN

Originally posted by wei_loon5063 at 5-7-2007 10:48 PM


tickmeoff... can you explain this more detail?

I`m bit lost here  

I tot you were expert in rebirth and reincarnation. Preaching about this subject here and there.

bubpallo

rebirth and reincarnation


sori wa x fluent english.... rebirth ialah kelahiran semula n reincarnation ialah penjelmaan rite?.. dlm buddhism, kita diajar mengenai kelahiran semula, ia jelas di terangkan dlm 4 kebenaran mulia iaitu kelahiran, tua, sakit n mati. tiada makhluk yg dapat lari drpd 4 kebenaran tersebut sehinggalah mereka mencapai Nibbana, iaitu berhenti daripada terikat dgn kelahiran semula. peljelmaan pula ialah roh menjelma kepada sesuatu yang lain bukan?.. mcm transformer yg i tgk kat pawagam tmpoh hari, dari treller menjelma kpd OPtimus Prime...heheee ... dlm kisah2 hidup buddha, antara makhluk yang suka menjelma ialah MARA. mereka ini yang selalu menjelma menjadi sesuatu utk menyesatkan manusia kearah kejahatan.

dlm kelahiran pula, tatkala kita manusia/haiwan yang berjasad di alam rupa ini kehabisan tempoh hayat, maka kesedaran kita akan terikut dgn karma kita kedestinasi yang lain yg terdapat di alam semesta ini. lima destinasi dgn 31 alam. apabila kita menjelma ke alam lain, maka bermulalah kelahiran kita semuala dialam tersebut. kelahiran tersebut di guidekan oleh karma2 kita sndiri. mungkin yg kata akan menjelma, but dlm buddhism ia adalah kelahiran.

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by SONofODIN at 6-7-2007 06:20 AM


I tot you were expert in rebirth and reincarnation. Preaching about this subject here and there.

I am learning and teaching at the same time laa

But the people in RFS are @sshole la.... they jst want to fvck ad do not want to learn

wei_loon5063

Originally posted by bubpallo at 6-7-2007 08:54 AM
rebirth and reincarnation


sori wa x fluent english.... rebirth ialah kelahiran semula n reincarnation ialah penjelmaan rite?.. dlm buddhism, kita diajar mengenai kelahiran semula, ia jelas d ...

saya fahama

Now, without reference to time and self, there can be no beforeorafter, no beginning or ending, no birth or death, no coming or going.
Yet there is life!

tapi lihat sini.... tanpa masa, diri, tak ada dulu tak ada akhir... tak ada lahir tak ada mati.. tak ada jadi tak ada pergi

tapi ada kehidupan... apa yang dimaksudkan dengan kehidupan?

semalam saya baca satu article tentang impermanance dan saya faham sema itu yang tentang tiada depan tak ada akir mati hidup

tapi masih ada kehidupan?


[ Last edited by  wei_loon5063 at 6-7-2007 03:31 PM ]