IMPERFECT GOD/BRAHMAN/ALLAH/JEHOVA

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-7-2006 07:23 AM

So, GOD in Islam forgives rapist, murderes, cheats and thiefs but would not forgive apostacy, is that what you mean?

Did I ever say that? The answer is NO

Originally posted by barney50 Are they? You are positive about it uh!..? Well, if that is the case how come so many Indian Muslims are leaving Islam in India? Sharuk Khan is a good example. Play back singer Mano[whose real name is Mohammed Kutty] is a murtad and actrees Kushboo a Bobbay walla who married a Hindu director is a murtad. These are a few to name but many thousands who have realized that it was not their birth right but forced converstion of their ancesstors that made them to be Muslims have left Islam. Go to north and you'll find a greater number who have left Islam.

The knowledgeable, faithful & practising Muslims will never  leave Islam

As for Sharukh Khan, I抦 not here to judge anybody.  I抦 not a fan of his or Hindustani films, but this is what I found. (read the one in red inside the link).  

:http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/printthread.php?t=9315

Originally posted by barney50

Yes, I have to talk about India because the truth lies there and not else where.

Talk about bigotry.  The truth (to me and all Muslims) lies everywhere (throughout the universe and beyond) even though God抯 revelation were first revealed to the human race of the middle eastern part of planet earth. That抯 the difference between Islam and Hinduism. Since Hinduism is only limited to the Indus Valley  (the origin of the word Hindu), you can see for yourself how limited your sphere is, geographically, spiritually & intellectually

Originally posted by barney50

My dear friend, that is political talk, as a quater of Muslims opted to stay back in India after indepedance. Do you know why? They could have joined the other Muslims who wanted to be with Ali Jinnah who craved for a seperate Muslim country. No, they wanted to be under a secular government and freedom to mingle with Hindu, Christian and Zorrastrians[escaped Persians from Muslim atrocities in Persia].

搕he abuses that had crept into Hindu society - the petrification of caste, untouchability, exclusiveness carried to fantastic lengths擺/i]厖Jawaharlal Nehru

He wasn抰 talking about politics even though to you his statement was politically motivated. He was telling the truth about Hinduism, his own religion. At least he was being  truthful enough.

Originally posted by barney50  

You do not know about India and Indian politics nor will Muslims of other nation.

So, in India, for a Hindu to survive politically he must ridicule Hinduism like Nehru did? Any Muslim politicians who ridicule Islam to politically survive in India? How many Muslim politicians are there? No wonder..

If there is no Pakistan, and Muslims are still Indians, the situation today would be much worse. Hindu Indians hate Pakistanis because they were Indian Muslims at one time and if they are still Indians, they would have all been slaughtered..

Originally posted by barney50

The answer is very simple. "GOD is in all of us" is a simple philosophy that killing another life is killing GOD? When a person sees in another person he would not attempt to hurt that person. Well, how could you know such philosophy when the doctorine you possess belongs to a nomadic desert man whose race was a terror of the desert.

Oh I see, heheh  :hmm:

barney50

1. responded by KENNKID: Did I ever say that? The answer is NO

Copy the Code

Well, that is what you meant when you did not give a specific reply to my question. Do you think apostatcy is the worst sin then the others mentioned by me?

1. responded by KENNKID:The knowledgeable, faithful & practising Muslims will never  leave Islam
   
2. 
   
3. As for Sharukh Khan, I抦 not here to judge anybody.  I抦 not a fan of his or Hindustani films, but this is what I found. (read the one in red inside the link).  

Copy the Code

Well, what does it mean? To him any form of worship is the same as we worship the one GOD in many formrs and names. That is what we understand tolerancy. And did you read what fanatical Muslims say such as this "No matter how diplomatic, sincere or professional this man may be, if he places the Hindu idols and the Quran side by side then there is nothing more needed to be said. All his good qualities aside and his love for his parents etc, but at the end of the day if a man has the audacity to call himself a Muslim and disgrace the word of the One supreme God in such a fashion then I have very little respect for him." I rest my case.

1. responded by KENNKID:Talk about bigotry.  The truth (to me and all Muslims) lies everywhere (throughout the universe and beyond) even though God抯 revelation were first revealed to the human race of the middle eastern part of planet earth. That抯 the difference between Islam and Hinduism. Since Hinduism is only limited to the Indus Valley  (the origin of the word Hindu), you can see for yourself how limited your sphere is, geographically, spiritually & intellectually

Copy the Code

So much for history and your understanding of Hinduism. Have you forgotten Hindu influence in South East Asia? To mention a few the Dvipantara or Jawa Dwipa Hindu kingdom in Java and Sumatra around 200 BC.

Cambodia was first influenced by Hinduism during the beginning of the Funan kingdom. Hinduism was one of the Khmer Empire's official religions. Many Cambodian customs originate from Hindu ones. Hinduism, along with Buddhism, greatly influenced the royal court of Burmese kings in pre-colonial times, as seen in the architecture of cities such as Bagan.  A number of Hindus remain in Thailand. They are mostly located in the cities. In the past, the nation came under the influence of the Khmer Empire, which had strong Hindu roots. The epic, Ramakien, is based on the Ramayana. The city, Ayutthaya, is named after Ayodhya, the birthplace of Rama.

The Dayaks, the original inhabitants of Borneo, follow the Kaharingan variety of Hinduism even now. The Dayak Hinduism is allied to the Balinese Hinduism. Hinduism was more prevalent in Malaysia prior to the arrival of Islam in the 15th century. Traces of Hindu influence remain in the Malay language, literature and art.

Until the arrival of an Arab trader to Sulu 1450 and Ferdinand Magellan, who sailed in behalf of Spain 1521, the chiefs of many Philippine islands were called Rajas, and the script was derived from Brahmi.the Tagalog (Filipino) word for teacher Guro came from the word guru. Karma, a Hindu concept is culturally understood by Filipinos. The vocabulary in all Philippine languages reflect strong Hindu influences. Tamad means lazy and may have come from the Hindu guna concept of tamas. Anyway there too much to be mentioned here but I think this would sufice for the moment.

1. responded by KENNKID:搕he abuses that had crept into Hindu society - the petrification of caste, untouchability, exclusiveness carried to fantastic lengths攨匤awaharlal Nehru
   
2. 
   
3. He wasn抰 talking about politics even though to you his statement was politically motivated. He was telling the truth about Hinduism, his own religion. At least he was being  truthful enough.

Copy the Code

The abuse is in all relgion, Islam, Christanity, Judaism and Hinduism. Which relgion was not abused and used as tool for self gratification by people with vested interest? You cannot blame the relgion for the wrong doing of its followers. Can blame Islam the wrong doing of Muslim terrorist? Well, Mahatma Gandhi is more senior to Nehru why don't you quote what he says about Hinduism? Please, yours is an excuse to claim only Islam is the only true relgion of this world. But I don't blame you for thinking in that manner coz that was how you have been brainwashed by your teachers.

1. responded by KENNKID:So, in India, for a Hindu to survive politically he must ridicule Hinduism like Nehru did? Any Muslim politicians who ridicule Islam to politically survive in India? How many Muslim politicians are there? No wonder..
   
2. 
   
3. If there is no Pakistan, and Muslims are still Indians, the situation today would be much worse. Hindu Indians hate Pakistanis because they were Indian Muslims at one time and if they are still Indians, they would have all been slaughtered..

Copy the Code

My dear friend, it was his understanding of Hinduism like Ali Sina who is against Islam. Did you not condemn this man for ridiculing Islam or for that matter the whole Muslim society? It is vice-versa, in Pakistan Hindus are being abused, raped and slaughtered. These are human backward thing. Did you see Muslims and Hindus in business together in India? Did you not see Muslims and Hindus acting to gether in movies? You should have seen the movie "BOMBAY" which was banned in Malaysia. You cannot understand the situation there because you're not living there. There are radical Muslims under the influence of Pakistani fundamentalist and so there is always trouble andread the news headlines today before you make your point here.

barney50

[code] responded by KENNKID:Oh I see, heheh   

Originally posted by barney50 at 12-7-2006 11:48 AM


CODE:[Copy to clipboard]responded by KENNKID: Did I ever say that? The answer is NO

[quote]Originally posted by barney50 at 12-7-2006 11:48 AM Well, that is what you meant when you did not give a specific reply to my question. Do you think apostatcy is the worst sin then the others mentioned by me?

In Islam forgetting God is considered sinful. When one commits murder, robbery, rape etc it is due to the fact that one is not with God or one does not remember God. Apostacy is an act of abandoning God for good & declaring it. Can it be less sinful?

Originally posted by barney50

Well, what does it mean? To him any form of worship is the same as we worship the one GOD in many formrs and names.

I disagree with you.

Originally posted by barney50

That is what we understand tolerancy.

That is not tolerancy. That抯 just an excuse for ignorance. To me that is  called giving more importance to the opinions of  other fellow human beings and abandoning the truth and what it stands for to achieve your own selfish objective. Islam stands for monotheism and Islam abhors idolatry and Muslims should uphold that principle -  there is no compromise to it.

[quote]Originally posted by barney50

And did you read what fanatical Muslims say such as this "No matter how diplomatic, sincere or professional this man may be, if he places the Hindu idols and the Quran side by side then there is nothing more needed to be said. All his good qualities aside and his love for his parents etc, but at the end of the day if a man has the audacity to call himself a Muslim and disgrace the word of the One supreme God in such a fashion then I have very little respect for him." I rest my case.

Yes, I read it

Originally posted by barney50


These quotes are nice to read but was not used practical. The result was the invasion of India and other surrounding nations by barbarians. Destruction of Buddha's statue in Bamiyan is an example of Islam that is understood by Talibans in Afghanistan. So how do you explain this act of destruction?

I抣l give you another quote (human quote):

揟he Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent took place during the ascendancy of the Rajput Kingdoms in North India, during the 7th to the 12th centuries. In evaluating the impact of Islam on the sub-continent, one must also note that the sub-continent was never immune from invasions from the North West. Like other settled agricultural societies - India has been periodically attacked by less civilized barbarian tribes all through its long history. In that sense, the Muslim invasions were not exceptional or unique. What does make the Muslim invasions different is that unlike their predecessors who assimilated into the prevalent social system - Muslim conquerors retained their Islamic identity and created new legal and administrative systems that challenged and usually superceded the existing systems of social conduct and ethics. They also introduced new cultural mores that in some ways were very different from the existing cultural codes. While these were a source of friction and conflict, it should also be noted that there were also Muslim rulers who in much of their secular practice absorbed or accommodated local traditions.擺/color]


:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_invasion_of_India

   

Originally posted by barney50

Well, that is your understanding of Hinduism but I can say the same to Islam instead I will not because it is not my way and perhaps I will put it in milder way. Islam is a figmant of Mohammed. Taking the OT of the Jewish faith and becoming their enemy just because they refused to reconize Mohammed and his religion is foolish of you and Muslims at large called. Please show me the Paradise that you and your fellow men dream so much. You claim it is not a myth but I say it is a myth and figmant of the mind of Muslims. Well, I do not see or hear any Muslim spirits claiming to have seen such a place so it is a myth all along.

An emotional outburst using colored, emotive adjectives like that when you have no other way to prove the so-called superiority of Hinduism  makes you to be no different from the infamous Sephiroth

Originally posted by barney50

Are you afraid of knowing the truth? Come on KENNKID, where else can you find such beauty? Have you not seen the beauty of mountains, streams, waterfalls and all the greeneries that surrounds you? This is real and not something imaginary? We have paradise right here but some people like you do not appreciate it but instead wish to destroy it. What would you answer as you believe if GOD on judgement day question you? GOD: ' We provided you with Paradise on earth but instead you imagine something else and destroyed what was given to you". What is your reply to this accusation? Did you ever think of that?  How will you answer GOD if HE demands to know? Ponder over it tonight.

What is my reply to such an accusation from you, you ask?  How will I answer God if He demands to know?

This is my reply -  those statements from you are figments of your imagination. The earth is beautiful, lovely, precious 匶ES, and  I do not destroy this precious gift, neither does Islam propagate the destruction of the earth. Paradise?

barney50

1. In Islam forgetting God is considered sinful. When one commits murder, robbery, rape etc it is due to the fact that one is not with God or one does not remember God. Apostacy is an act of abandoning God for good & declaring it. Can it be less sinful?

Copy the Code

What you mean to say is killing innocent being is not with GOD? And so those killing innocent people and call it Islamic jihad are not with GOD? Boy! I did not realize these so these rascals are fake Muslims who want to distort the peace of this world. Thank you for pointing out this mistakes being committed by morons who claim to be Muslims and fighting for GOD.  As for apostates, was it personaly written by Mohammed or was it written after his death? As far as I know all these were compiled and written after Mohammed's death so there is a question mark as could such decree be written by the order of the first caliph to keep the Muslims in the fold?

1. I disagree with you.

Copy the Code

You disagree because you have been thought to disagree. Otherwise you would agree.

1. That is not tolerancy. That抯 just an excuse for ignorance. To me that is  called giving more importance to the opinions of  other fellow human beings and abandoning the truth and what it stands for to achieve your own selfish objective. Islam stands for monotheism and Islam abhors idolatry and Muslims should uphold that principle -  there is no compromise to it.

Copy the Code

Ignorance? Well, you have accepted an opinion of others, such as you ullamas and interpreters of the Koran so why not the opinions of others than. So you are bias and prejudice against the faith and belief of others. Morever idol worship is obvious in Islam too. For an example  pilgrims to Mecca throw stones at the three pillars that are infused with the images of devils!

And why kiss the stone of Kaaba? And if someone were to spit upon this stone of Kaaba, why would it invoke and provoke angry reactions?   After all that is only a piece of stone! Muslim pilgrims visiting the Kaaba temple go around it seven times. Any pilgrim going to a place of pilgrimage does so with the utmost worshipful attitude of the mind. Why the display of reverence and the worshipful attitude towards the stone of Kaaba? After all the stone of Kaaba is an inanimate object.

A sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as sacred like the waters of the river Ganges since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water). Even today, Muslim pilgrims who go to the Kaaba for Haj regard this Zam-Zam water with reverence and take some bottled water with them as sacred water.

Chemically speaking, water is water. What is the difference between this Zam-Zam water and the water that flows downstream from some nearby mountains?

1. Tolerance in Islam is this: You stick to your own religion. I stick to mine. I don抰 share in what you believe. I respect you as a human being with your rights. We live in this world together, we can work for its betterment together in harmony. BUT no way will I share your dirt. That way I am tolerating you.

Copy the Code

See, what islam has done to an innocent soul. It drives you to call my faith a dirt. So much for Islamic teachings. The curtain is drawn and true nature is shown here because you cannot digest what is being explained. Sorry, I hope other Muslims would have a clear mind and not have a clouded mind like yours.

[code]That history and that influence and that 慶ivilization

barney50

1. I抣l give you another quote (human quote):While these were a source of friction and conflict, it should also be noted that there were also Muslim rulers who in much of their secular practice absorbed or accommodated local traditions.擺/code]
   
2. 
   
3. You are refering to Akhbar the Great who assimilated Hindu system in his rule but it was short lived because his son did not accept such a move. See what fanatical Muslim can do to distort the peace. Morever this Muslim invaders were inspired by the Quran and hadith to rule of others and impose their belief failing which the enemy must be killed. Can you digest that?
   
4. 
   
5. [code]An emotional outburst using colored, emotive adjectives like that when you have no other way to prove the so-called superiority of Hinduism  makes you to be no different from the infamous Sephiroth

Copy the Code

Please leave Sephiroth as this discussion is between us alone. Anyway whay I have mentioned is the solemn truth. Do you deny that? Creating a new relgion with the help of another relgion and than adding someything else to say it is a continuity other the other and I am the last prophet is something very very unethical. The idea was to accomedate the Jews and Christians and merge Islam with Judaism but it back fired becuase the Jews and Christians were satisfied with their own. So for their refusal they became the enemy of Islam. See the drama unfold before your eyes.

[code] What is my reply to such an accusation from you, you ask?  How will I answer God if He demands to know?

This is my reply -  those statements from you are figments of your imagination. The earth is beautiful, lovely, precious 匶ES, and  I do not destroy this precious gift, neither does Islam propagate the destruction of the earth. Paradise?

Saje nak menyibuk dan menyempil sekejap.

Pardon me Barney,

KENKIDD had posted excellent points to refute all your egoist / bias statements/understandings on God and Islam and I wont interfere your debate with him.

Looking at your opening thread, wow, Barney what an egoist statements you have there to question  the Creator!  

A mere mortal can talk big when he is living in a familiar surrounding with all comforts and facilities in hand. Living among familiar faces such as family members, friends, or among the humankind.

Just conduct a simple and most effective test if you dare to prove whether there is God the Creator whom you dare to challenge!

Go alone and stay in a deep forest ( not secondary jungle huh ) for at least three months.
You need only to bring the basic necessities to keep you alive there and must remain in total isolation from the rest of the world without any communication/contact with the outside world whatsoever.
So here , your test begin against your own willpower and gloated ego of a mere mortal against the wild nature and whatever creatures that might pay you a visit, whether wild beast or any creatures who knows!

See whether you will still remain the same person as before you go into the exploration to find yourself in relation to the Creator, or perhaps the other way round, mungkin kena baham dek harimau hidup-hidup!

barney50

Inam_6,

Long time tak sembang. So how have you been keep and hope all is fin in the water front. Well about your comment I'll take it lightly coz living in the jungle was one human nature before we evolve to civilization. So it is no big deal. Moever there are shadus who have isolated themsleve for this world and are still living in meditation in the forest in India close to Himalaya. I refuted KENNKID becuase I have a reason and he has not proven to me of his claim.  I need not look for signs as he mentioned in his reply. To me I'm am the sign as I know GOD is in me in you and in all living creatures of this planet and others too. But he only sais look for signs around you. Why should I look for signs around me when I am realized GOD in me? May be he has not reach the level needed to realize GOD in all. Morever he said what I believe is dirt. That is all for now. Take care and have a nice day.

BeanDiesel

KENNKID and barney50, I applaud your way of arguing. Specifically quote statements and argue each one step by step, as it seems. Keep it up, and make sure no violations ok?

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-7-2006 12:57 PM

What you mean to say is killing innocent being is not with GOD? And so those killing innocent people and call it Islamic jihad are not with GOD? Boy! I did not realize these so these rascals are fake Muslims who want to distort the peace of this world. Thank you for pointing out this mistakes being committed by morons who claim to be Muslims and fighting for GOD.  

Whether those people who claim to and who you people call  慾ihadists

Originally posted by barney50My dear friend Islam is not the only true relgion but one of the relgion of the world that has its own concept of GOD. I do not know who brewed the idea into your mind but you should realize that if GOD intented the whole world should be Islamised HE would have but HE did not. Do you know why? That is becuase HE had already given others awhay to reach HIM. With a total population of 6.5 billion only 1.3 billion are Muslims and that too not accounting those who have left Islam but retaining their Muslim name for fear of being abused and hunted down by barbarians.

God is not subjected to the number of believers  neither is He dependent on the number of believers. For example:  Two  billion people worship cows, 2 billion people worship a human being and 1 billion people  worship the True Creator. Does that make cow & human being  the true Creator?

Even if there are no believers left Allah is still the True Creator

Originally posted by barney50But no differentanswer from me. Islam promotes hatred and promotes dominance over the world with ego and pride caliming to only true relgion of GOD which I dispice its followers for such thoughts. It is not rivalry to the truth but enemy to the whole truth and influence of Arab supreiority.

Your racist sentiment & arrogance  is too thick. Very hard to cure Barney, unless you want to.

Originally posted by barney50

No, it is not because truth can be found in many others. It is because of you ignorance and false pretence that you fail to realize that.

Only God knows and decides and you are not God. Yes, truth can be found in many others, but not the whole truth.

Originally posted by barney50

Nehru was not a religious guru but a politician and I do not believe what politician say. Ahi Sina and his race experienced Islam long before your kind and he knows Islam better than you. You hate him because he tell the truth and you would not dare debate with him because unlike me he wa a Muslim who knows the inner secret of it. May be the  gloat is your Islamic teacher and the glee is you.

If he really knows Islam he would certainly love Islam. But he prefers to gloat, just like you prefer to glee

Originally posted by barney50So those who practice Sati were  not Hindus?
I do not know but you should ask them the Rajputs if they are Hindus. As far as I know there is no word of sate or sutee in the Hindu scriptures as claimed by anti Hindus like you. If it was true there would be no widows left in India now.

Comprehende?

Do you mean 慍omprende

Response to #87

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-7-2006 01:23 PM

You are refering to Akhbar the Great who assimilated Hindu system in his rule but it was short lived because his son did not accept such a move. See what fanatical Muslim can do to distort the peace. Morever this Muslim invaders were inspired by the Quran and hadith to rule of others and impose their belief failing which the enemy must be killed. Can you digest that?

I did not say that I condone Akbar抯 act of assimilating Hindu system in his rule. It was a quote from Wikipedia. His son was only doing the right thing. 揻ailing which the enemy must be killed

reinloch

The secular West that you all despise is wealthier than all the devoted Muslim countries in the world, socially, economically, politically and militarily. Looks like Islam is not doing them any good.

While they all still wait for the ever elusive divine intervention from God, the Western military machine would countinue to rape their helpless nations. Just like how helpless Muslims are when their brothers are getting slaughtered in Palestine and Lebanon.

Despite their faith in the teachings of the Quran, they conviniently forget that they are supposed to be brothers and engage in brutal killings (80-88 Iran-Iraq) and backstabbings of each other (73 Yom Kippur).

Islam is in desperate need of a revision. Teachings like four wives per man and covering of the body make sense in the chaotic era during which Islam was born but are obselete and seen as gender biased today. This is just icing on the cake.

Ask why being devout followers, you all falling behind the atheist West. Don't talk about this world being just a temporary stop before paradise. It will just make you lazy.

There is no reason for you(us)  to lag so far behind. The West was devastated by the 2 world wars. Enough time to shrink the gap. Japan and South Korea showed that it could be done.

Originally posted by reinloch at 14-7-2006 09:12 AM
The secular West that you all despise is wealthier than all the devoted Muslim countries in the world, socially, economically, politically and militarily. Looks like Islam is not doing them any goo ...Ask why being devout followers, you all falling behind the atheist West.

Debmey and gang, he has just declared that the west is atheist and that to advance in this world you have to be  atheists. Do you all agree?

I tend to agree with this fella reinloch in as far as the west is concerned, not about its 'advancement' but about its atheistic quality.

Do you agree with me that the majority of people of the West no longer live, on a daily basis, with a personal and real awareness of God?   - for their lives are dominated by materialism, by striving for a material prosperity and a material security. The way of thinking, the way of life, of the West is the secular way of the arrogant  individual - of a capitalism based upon usury and of a society intent on personal pleasure and on finding a 'happiness' in this life only. When there is an awareness of God, it is usually only when a personal tragedy or some personal suffering arises - and even if and when this awareness of God does last among some individuals, everything in Western society conspires to make it of no consequence so far as society itself, and thus other people, are concerned.

The secular, atheistic so-called 'science' of the West, and the poison of selfish materialism, have done their work. Ask any young Western person what they want to do with their lives - what the aim of life is - and their answer is usually "to enjoy myself - to have a good time".

Agree?

And what do you all think of this?  
(in the link below)

In his ultracontroversial book, which will be banned, blocked
and burned in many quarters, brave Buchanan contends that
the U.S. will be a Third World nation by the year 2050



:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/600287/posts

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 14-7-2006 11:20 AM ]

reinloch

What do you suggest, my friend? Wait for the West to implode while we go about our daily business of not improving ourselves, content with the knowledge that this is but a fleeting life that is not worth fighting for, and that paradise awaits us after death?

Words of one man against real events happenning in front of you. Muslims are getting oppressed by the West in the Middle East and there is not a damned thing any other Muslim can do except blow up other Muslim countries. Why did they fell into this pit. Are they simply waiting for divine aid, so they gave up seeking a way out with their own hands.

The next leaders of the world are the East Asians, no less atheistic than the West. Muslim nations are very far down the queue.

Historically, religious piousness does not translate to progress (not counting the Islamic civilization which fell from the stage after the Western rise in science and technology). Literally, you can compete when everyone else is stupid, but after they became smart, they simply roll over you.

Baiduri Othman

Originally posted by barney50 at 6-7-2006 11:45 AM
HE is not perfect in his creation of this universe.

1. Created human race in three different colors, black , brown and commonly called white which is not in actual case.

2. Selected a particu ...

Well, if everything is SO PERFECT, then we must be living in HEAVEN. Living happily ever after.

Originally posted by reinloch at 14-7-2006 12:24 PM
What do you suggest, my friend? Wait for the West to implode while we go about our daily business of not improving ourselves, content with the knowledge that this is but a fleeting life that is not ...

Improving ourselves has nothing to do with abandoning God. The difference between you and me is that I believe that I have a Creator and that the true  path to Him is Islam. You don't believe in either, because you think believing in God hinders progress.  I totally disagree with you.

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 14-7-2006 02:41 PM ]

reinloch

Originally posted by KENNKID at 14-7-2006 02:27 PM


Improving ourselves has nothing to do with abandoning God

Agreed. But your fellow Muslims are not showing any signs of improvement. The situation in the ME will continue as it is until they run out of oil and out of Western attention. All around the world, historically backed, ATHEISTS nations are progressing well while Muslims ones are stagnant. The Christians did not abandon God when they went on conquering the world. The Zionists didn't when they kicked Arab arse time and time again. There must be some kind of flaw, either in the religion or the intepretation of the religion that is causing Muslims to always sit on the bad end.

Originally posted by reinloch at 14-7-2006 02:42 PM


Agreed. But your fellow Muslims are not showing any signs of improvement. The situation in the ME will continue as it is until they run out of oil and out of Western attention. All around the w ...

From the tone of your argument, I strongly sense that you were born a Muslim. The trouble with you is that your  measurement of worldly success is an atheistic measurement - the same with the Christians and the Jews that you cited as examples. I'm not saying that I disagree with you  to a certain degree but the Muslim malaise is due to their own preferred narrow interpretation of Islam. As long as they are afraid and taught to be afraid to dig and find out and dissect they will remain like that, because if they do they will know that Islam is not what their narrow minds perceive it to be.  To question and to dissect does not mean to abandon. Let me ask you one question... what is your understanding of qada' and qadar (or rather, how do you understand the concepts of qada' and qadar) ?... I want to see whether  it is similar to 90% of the normal  'understanding' of it by Muslims..

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 14-7-2006 02:57 PM ]