A visit to Lina Joy's family

eastrun

Originally posted by barney50 at 6-8-2006 12:17 PM
responded by eastrun:HADITH IS THE TRADITION OF THE PROPHET...THe source of Hadith is the Holy Quran....Meaning that...it's God's word which God instructed to the Prophet to do PHYSICALLY...Why so ...

"[Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom , while, before that, they had been in manifest error.]  (Aal `Imran 3:164)

Baiduri Othman

You guys might want to read this article & comment on it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp ... 06080401066_pf.html

Did Muhammad Really Say That?
Muslims Re-Examine the Words of the Prophet in Today's Light

By Omar Sacirbey
Religion News Service
Saturday, August 5, 2006; B09

Jihaad Abdul-Majid has often found inspiration in the words and deeds of Islam's prophet, Muhammad, from his acts of compassion and charity to his counsel that followers treat women fairly and help the poor.

At the same time, other sayings that implied female inferiority and intolerance toward other religions troubled the 23-year-old student at the University of Louisville in Kentucky.

"These issues have pushed me to seek more knowledge," said Abdul-Majid, who recently enrolled in an online course about the hadith, the collected stories of what Muhammad and his closest companions said and did.

Muslims hold the hadith second only to the Koran as a source of Shariah law and personal guidance. For centuries, Muslims have hotly debated the hadith, often coming to vastly different conclusions about what lessons to draw from Muhammad's life.

Now, with extremists citing certain sayings to justify violence, intolerance and the oppression of women, moderate Muslim scholars and lay people such as Abdul-Majid are revisiting the collected sayings and opening a debate about their meaning and role in Muslim life.

Because the hadith carry so much weight, any new interpretations could have dramatic effects on Muslim societies -- influencing views on issues that include the rights of women and religious minorities and the compatibility of Islam with democracy. And a Hyattsville woman, Saida Malik, questions the hadith in part because the stories were gathered by males.

Yet even those who advocate change acknowledge it won't come easily.

"There's resistance because it means changing the culture," said Pamela Taylor, co-chairwoman of the Progressive Muslim Union. "It's a very threatening thing to look hard at your religion and say we've been doing it wrong for the last 1,100 years."

Muhammad commanded followers not to record what he said to guard against the possibility that they would confuse his words with God's. Instead, Muslims kept the sayings alive orally.

By the early 9th century, about 200 years after Muhammad's death, as many as 700,000 sayings were circulating across the Muslim world. Many were of questionable credibility and some were even fabricated to support political or economic policies.

Leading scholars decided that the sayings should be collected and verified. Using a painstaking process, they traced the chain of narration and scrutinized the character and memory skills of the individual reporters.

The two preeminent hadith scholars, Muhammad ibn Isma'il al-Bukhari and Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, collected 2,602 and 9,200 hadith, respectively, all of them considered sahih, or "sound," authentic and indisputable. Other collections exist, but they include sayings with weak links or other defects.

Over the centuries, however, weak classifications have not stopped some Muslims from invoking some sayings for political purposes. Others have interpreted sound hadith in ways that many Muslims find inconsistent with other Islamic teachings. Such practices continue today.

Consider the dispute around a hadith that says, "A woman may not lead a man in prayer, nor may a Bedouin lead Muhammad's followers or a corrupt person lead a committed Muslim in prayer."

Sheikh Muhammad Nur Abdullah, president of the Indianapolis-based Islamic Society of North America, last year cited the first third of that hadith in a paper arguing against women as prayer leaders in mixed-gender congregations.

Taylor of the Progressive Muslim Union, who supports women-led prayer, argued that the hadith suffers from a weak chain of narrators and is a racist text out of step with Islam's racial egalitarianism. It was "hypocritical," she said, to use a hadith knowing it was weak.

Abdullah acknowledged that the hadith is "weak," but said he used it only to support other hadith to make his case. He also denied it was racist.

Sound narrations that some see as inconsistent with the Koran, or that don't fit Muhammad's image as fair and compassionate, can be even more problematic.

For example, in several hadith collected by Bukhari, Muhammad orders adulterers to be stoned to death, although the Koran prescribes a punishment of up to 100 lashes. In recent years, Islamic courts in Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Nigeria have handed down death sentences in some adultery cases, although it is unclear how many have been carried out.

"There are some that show him merciful and there are some that show him otherwise," said Shahed Amanullah, editor of the online magazine altmuslim.com. "People are asking, 'How can you have these contradictions?' So something is wrong, and someone needs to resolve that."

Saida Malik, a retired federal worker, took matters into her own hands 40 years ago as a young woman in Pakistan when she picked up an Islamic magazine that advocated rejecting any hadith that seemed inconsistent with the Koran or Muhammad's character.

Malik, who immigrated to Hyattsville almost 30 years ago, said she's still skeptical about the hadith, partly because they were collected by men.

"It's my iman ," Malik, 66, said, using the Arabic word for faith, "that he would not have given unreasonable, idiotic advice, which the hadith books are full of."

Some scholars, however, warn against simply dismissing troubling sayings and suggest a better response is to reinterpret the texts.

"The scholars have done a tremendous job of recording and authenticating the hadith. After all that work, to say, 'OK, let's throw the hadith away because it doesn't fit with my intellect,' I should question my intellect, not the hadith," Abdullah said.

Other scholars caution against a rush to view ancient texts through modern eyes. "If people don't like something, the easiest thing to do is to say that the hadith must not be true," said Mohammad Fadel, an Islamic law professor at the University of Toronto.

"This is understandable to some extent, but it's an easy way out; it's not an intellectually sound approach," he said.

There is also no guarantee that new interpretations that try to reconcile certain texts with modern times will be accepted by all Muslims.

This year, for example, Afghan judges justified their death sentence for a Muslim convert to Christianity based on a death sentence handed down by Muhammad to an apostate. Yet most Muslim scholars condemned the Afghan judges, citing examples from Muhammad's life in which he urged tolerance for people of other faiths. They noted that the man ordered by Muhammad to die was not guilty of changing religions, but of treason.

"With this apostasy issue, the differences become so glaring, with one side saying, 'put to death,' and the other saying, 'no, free will.' People are coming from two worlds," said Amanullah of altmuslim.com. "The cultural differences in the Muslim world stem from the hadith."

Other scholars emphasize that the hadith and their interpretations should be viewed through the prism of time and culture. If Muslims are to successfully reinterpret the hadith for the 21st century, they must avoid literalism and be willing to apply the hadith to reflect today's cultural norms.

"In the prophet's time, there was a tacit understanding that things would change as circumstances changed," said Ebrahim Moosa, an Islamic studies professor at Duke University.

"We need to re-evaluate our canon of interpretation."

[ Last edited by  Baiduri Othman at 6-8-2006 12:58 PM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by greekgod at 6-8-2006 11:29 AM

so, to you, making LIE, FALSE, and STRAYING statement is acceptable? no wonder, you always do

mind proofing what lie and false  statments i made??

do u know me personally? NO

than why u farbricate that story i am not ex muslim?? now did not it show u lie and misleads us

MENJ

Originally posted by Baiduri Othman at 6-8-2006 12:56 PM
You guys might want to read this article & comment on it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp ... 06080401066_pf.html

Did Muhammad Really Say That?
Muslims Re ...

Its orthodox Islam versus the heretical Liberal Islam movement. The Liberal Islam understanding has already been declared as haraam by the Majlis Ulama Indonesia.

- MENJ

Baiduri Othman

Salam Menj,

Good to see here. I just want to know if there's any hukum on apostates apart from the one stated in the hadith. Eastrun has posted a Quranic verse on apostates but I'm not too sure. Thanks.

Baiduri Othman

Menj, whatever it's - I always believe that we must reconcile the hadiths with the Holy Quran since the Holy Quran holds the authority. Not all hadiths can be trusted & we're uncertain of its authenticity. The hadiths might fall in the hands of the anti-Islam groups in those ancient yrs - they might change & twist the contents, then they alleged the hadiths are sahih.

One more thing - we focus too much on unnecessary things whereas we can easily get the info from the Holy Quran. Muslims shd move on with their lives - focus more on education, economy etc so that we won't be wasting our time on fighting all the times.

[ Last edited by  Baiduri Othman at 6-8-2006 03:20 PM ]

MENJ

Originally posted by Baiduri Othman at 6-8-2006 02:52 PM
Salam Menj,

Good to see here. I just want to know if there's any hukum on apostates apart from the one stated in the hadith. Eastrun has posted a Quranic verse on apostates but I'm not too sure ...

I have an article on apostasy by an ustaazh who studied in Jordan but its stored somewhere in my backup DVDs and I've lost the link. I'll try to find if its still available online.

Also, regarding what you said about inauthentic or authentic hadiths, we should not blindly go about saying this hadith is authentic, this hadith is not. There are various intricate methodologies involved in the scrutinisation of hadith; and we already have pakar hadith such as Sheikh al-Albani rahimullah and even our own Dr Asri ZA who have the expertise to talk about hadith. Hadith sciences bukannya benda main-main.

Wassalam.

- MENJ

greekgod

if you remember, you used to say something, and i caught u red-handed into lying, therefore... i open a new thread to discuss, check back at:

truth.8: another lies on the foundation of his belief
http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=208585

you used to reply to that thread....

hope this enlighten your mind liar...

and also if you used to remember, almost every muslim at one time call you liar.8 for lies that has been caught. also forgotten about that?

Baiduri Othman

Thanks Menj. Looking forward for that article.

barney50

1. responded by MENJ:Its orthodox Islam versus the heretical Liberal Islam movement. The Liberal Islam understanding has already been declared as haraam by the Majlis Ulama Indonesia.

Copy the Code

So, now it's Indonesian fanatics injecting poisen into the minds of Muslims in Malaysia? Are you member of Mat Top the fugitive? Looks like that to me. True Muslims would not believe any of the hadith because they know those were not from GOD but man alone.

"It's my iman ," Malik, 66, said, using the Arabic word for faith, "that he would not have given unreasonable, idiotic advice, which the hadith books are full of."

Muhammad commanded followers not to record what he said to guard against the possibility that they would confuse his words with God's. Instead, Muslims kept the sayings alive orally.

So, which is superior MENJ, the QURAN or the HADITH?

MENJ

Originally posted by Baiduri Othman at 6-8-2006 05:56 PM
Thanks Menj. Looking forward for that article.

I havent found the article yet, but I found videos which touch on the issue of apostasy. Tentunya di dalam bahasa melayu.

http://al-ahkam.net/home/modules ... ticle&sid=15005

Will try to get that article soon insha allah.

- MENJ

MENJ

Originally posted by barney50 at 6-8-2006 08:43 PM
So, which is superior MENJ, the QURAN or the HADITH?  

It wouldnt matter  to you as an elephant worshipper anyway what my answer would be. So why are you making a fuss out of this? You already know what my answer is, and that apostasy from Islam is a serious crime punishable by DEATH. So who died and gave you the authority to dispute this?

- MENJ

barney50

1. responded by MENJ: t wouldnt matter  to you as an elephant worshipper anyway what my answer would be. So why are you making a fuss out of this? You already know what my answer is, and that apostasy from Islam is a serious crime punishable by DEATH. So who died and gave you the authority to dispute this?

Copy the Code

Heh! dudde,

Is it mentioned in the QURAN and what is the punishment for it in the QURAN. Do not tell about the hadith as it is not word of GOD but some idiots form the 8th century. So, show me where is says death for aspostates in the QURAN. Otheriwse just shut up.

MENJ

Alhamdulillah...I found the article written by Ustaz Zaharuddin Ab Rahman, but its in Google cache:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cac ... mp;ct=clnk&cd=3

I will post it on Bukan Islam Liberal shortly, so that a proper (and shorter!) link will be provided.

Wassalam.

- MENJ

Truth.8

Originally posted by greekgod at 6-8-2006 05:51 PM
if you remember, you used to say something, and i caught u red-handed into lying, therefore... i open a new thread to discuss, check back at:

truth.8: another lies on the foundation of his belief
http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=208585

you used to reply to that thread....

hope this enlighten your mind liar...

and also if you used to remember, almost every muslim at one time call you liar.8 for lies that has been caught. also forgotten about that?

that doesn't proof anything because u do not know me personally.

yes almost every muslims calling me liar and why not almost all media in malaysia showin how wicked is Jews and muslims trying to proof that they angels.

the real culprit is u and rest of the muslims who think they inocents.

MENJ

The article has been edited and posted on Bukan Islam Liberal:

http://www.bukanliberal.org/articles/302/

- MENJ

Debmey

Here's the facts w/o the spin.

Lina Joy was muslim
She accepted Christ willingly even though she realised the consequensces or ex-communication and persecution.
She made the effort to challenge the courts so that she can practice her faith freely.
Muslims rally enmass to disregard the Msian constitution and to shut down debates on the issue in fear of her actions.

think

sherlyn

Originally posted by greekgod at 4-8-2006 07:41 PM



jgn la percaya bila dia cakap dia bekas muslim... sebab kita orang dah buktikan sebaliknya... sampai pernah sekali kita kat sini panggil si Truth.8 ni dengan nama Liar.8 due to his nature.

thanks for telling me the truth (if it's true)..:tq:

I don't know what the big deal is about Lina Joy. If she decides to believe that the messenger of Allah Jesus is Allah (God), then she is not only confused but lost. I just hope that she will find the light and return to the true path. I pity her.

Debmey

i pity you kennkid.