Instant Death to Apostates in the Bible's Old and New Testaments

i212 said
We take some simple example:
What would you if someone attack your country and try to destroy it?

excuse me? what has that got to do with what i said? attacking a country and attacking an ideology is 2 different things, dont divert the attention to somewhere else.

i212 said
Can you try to examine Muslim who live at Non-Muslim Country?.
Near example:
In singapore, Muslim children can not  where their hijab when going to School. can you explain that.?
See in Malaysia. Did Gov prohibit Non-Muslim to practicetheir Faith?

If they cannot wear the hijab, does that endanger their lives? does this mean that appeals cannot be made to the government? In malaysia the government does prevent other people from practicing their faith, by not allowinng, or delaying permits to build places of worship for non muslims.Like the chuirch in shah alam that took 20 years to approve, if it was a mosque, just blink your eye, already got approval. look at malaysia first. And beside, singapore is not a truly democratic country. it is up to singaporeans to oust the PAP. In malaysia, some non muslims formed article 11 to get equal rigths, because a few recent cases , notably the murthi and sharmala case whereby the non muslims rights are subjugated, but your brethen became violent, and even threathened to kill article 11 members, and also disrupted the forum. Now not wearing the hijab, got any threat to your life if you dont wear hijab? But to gain a non muslim's rights in a muslim country, the non muslims will be threatened by the muslims, as it is seen as challenging supremacy of islam. And your Quran condones it, as proven by the what its adherents did.

i212 said
hmmm. he Are you Ayah Pin believer?.
What I know, NOT EVEN MUSLIM dont that to CORRUPT religion organization. (Aum Shin Ri Kyu, House Of David, KKK)
Can you explain about that?
Corruption can lead to destruction

no i am not, but ayah pin dont have machine guns and sarin gas, and never called for violence. Since when did muslims have the right to form mobs and attack a commune just because they beleive differently. they only threathen your beleif, not your life. The attack wasnt justified.
You say his religion is CORRUPT, whats makes you think yours isnt?


i212 said
Not must believe. But Should believe. Different thing

Really, then why do you force your laws on everyone , if you said not MUST, but SHOULD?


i212 asked
Can you explain how LIving Thing Existed?


i can explain how living things existed, so can the christians, the jews, hindus, buddhist animinst, new agers, and even sky kingdomers.the scientist also got their point, SO, you will hear a different story from each. So what makes your story as a muslim SUPERIOR? Why must we let you enforce such laws, which you think is only superior in your eyes, but others dont think so? Isnt it better to apply a law that everyone can agree on, and leave religion where it belongs, as a beleif, not knowledge.

[ Last edited by  ALFLOSS at 6-10-2006 01:09 PM ]

i212

by ALFLOSS
excuse me? what has that got to do with what i said? attacking a country and attacking an ideology is 2 different things, dont divert the attention to somewhere else.


If someone attacking your country, after they take over, how about your daily life? its change right?
Its same if in ONE soccer team. If someone Defied and Disobey the COACH, what happen to the TEAM?


by ALFLOSS
If they cannot wear the hijab, does that endanger their lives?

Its endanger our faith. Women in ISLAM need to wear their Hijab.
Same as SIGH that need to where their Turban.
Its about Faith.


by ALFLOSS
does this mean that appeals cannot be made to the government?

Appeal have been made and the Gov still with their Stand.
Muslim women cannot wear hijab. Its same like they are denying Muslim faith.

by ALFLOSS
In malaysia the government does prevent other people from practicing their faith, by not allowinng, or delaying permits to build places of worship for non muslims.Like the chuirch in shah alam that took 20 years to approve, if it was a mosque, just blink your eye, already got approval. look at malaysia first.


Did we get that blink in other place?
About the delaying, I am not sure but one thing I one to know, The location, why it delayed and maybe you can give the source.


By ALFLOSS
In malaysia, some non muslims formed article 11 to get equal rigths, because a few recent cases , notably the murthi and sharmala case whereby the non muslims rights are subjugated, but your brethen became violent, and even threathened to kill article 11 members,


Treathened to Kill? hmm.... I dont know about that.
You must know this thing, Muslim Council Will not make Muslim become Apostate.
If the child dont accept Islam, why they not resist it at the first place?.
If the women really want the child, just take them, make them apostate.
Muslim Gov will not Kill them as long as they Not form a group and threathened Islam Faith.


by ALFLOSS
Now not wearing the hijab, got any threat to your life if you dont wear hijab?

Its Allah commandments. Muslim must follow it. Its our faith.


by ALFLOSS
no i am not, but ayah pin dont have machine guns and sarin gas, and never called for violence. Since when did muslims have the right to form mobs and attack a commune just because they beleive differently. they only threathen your beleif, not your life. The attack wasnt justified.
You say his religion is CORRUPT, whats makes you think yours isnt?


Hey.. he use Al-Quran and twisting the meaning.
Seem like you just make negative view yourself.

by ALFLOSS
Really, then why do you force your laws on everyone , if you said not MUST, but SHOULD?

when did we force non Muslim to follow Islamic law?
Explained.

by ALFLOSS
i can explain how living things existed, so can the christians, the jews, hindus, buddhist animinst, new agers, and even sky kingdomers.the scientist also got their point, SO, you will hear a different story from each. So what makes your story as a muslim SUPERIOR? Why must we let you enforce such laws, which you think is only superior in your eyes, but others dont think so?


Enforcing what law?
1) Did we jailed NON-MUSLIM that HAVE SEX WITHOUT MARRIAGE?
2) DID we jailed NON-MUSLIM gambling?
3) DID we jailed NON-MUSLIM that become HOMO?

You just see one side of the law. There are branches in Islamic law.


And one thing, Civil Law that make that women suffer. Why?

Let see the basic understanding.

In ISLAMIC LAW
ONCE one of NON-MUSLIM Married couple convert to ISLAM,
THEY ARE AUTOMATICALLY DIVORCE. Its already known by all people.
And they need to re-married if both of them converts.

In CIVIL LAW
ONCE one of NON-MUSLIM Married couple convert to ISLAM.
They NOT AUTOMATICALLY divorce.
The DIVORCEE need to unregister the married and need to pay RM5000.

So... whos fault is it. CIVIL LAW or ISLAMIC LAW. Which part ISLAMIC LAW injustice.


Isnt it better to apply a law that everyone can agree on, and leave religion where it belongs, as a beleif, not knowledge.

No we cannot.
Can you give me ONE COUNTRY that have LAW where everybody AGREE ON.




and also disrupted the forum.

which forum?

barney50

1. responded by snipersnake:
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. funny thing, when muhammad entered mecca, not even one fragment of blood was spilled. and u need to learn world history.

Copy the Code

Yeh! Funny thing how Muslim scholars can twist history to their. Not one fragment of blood! Bhoooooooooooooooooo.

1. 1. we dont bow to statues/ humans/animal
   
2. 2.we bow ALL IN ONE DIRECTION..ALL ACCROSS THE WORLD.

Copy the Code

Yes, it's true in one direction where the "BLACK STONE" is placed. Indirect paganism is what Islam is all about. And for idol worship in heart is Mohammed. So make me understand.......

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
hah, then thats the end of it? just go on with our lives?

well,yeah...you choose to believe that Islam enforces others to be muslims in order to gain equality,what can i say?
you believe whatever it is you choose to believe.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
a few years back, i will try to get the article for you, it was only published once in the mainstream papers, but malaysiakini ran the story longer, and the NGO Sisters In Islam did try to help the wife.he did not inform the wife, and he took the new wife as a second wife without divorcing the 1stwife. it is the fault of the religion because it did not make it mandatory for him to divorce the first wife, since he is a muslim, his rights are higher.

you still have to use your brains and think.
just because it isnt stated that it is mandatory,does not mean you can simply do as you please.
God did not create humans to be stupid.you've got brains and feelings,use them.
if you feel that you are cheating/lying to your wife by not informing her of what you want to do,then it is wrong.
but if your wife does not mind of these things,then you have not done much wrong of anything..

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
correct secular law isnt perfect, but it is still more fair towards everyone, and does not discriminate based on religion,

evidently it discriminates against fathers.. :lol

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
plus secular can be changed to suit the times, unlike islamic law which is unchangeble, as soon as you even breathe the word "change", you will be punished as a heretic.

you dont have to change the law,but maybe change the way it is implemented.
if the matter involves muslims,then the full use of the syariah law is implemented on them.
but if it involves a muslim and a non muslim,we could use secular law.

*it's just an idea,syariah law (IINM) i read somewhere is to be used on top of the country's laws...*

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
am i an enemy of ISLAM then, because i am trying to stop muslims from implementing their laws? what can be done to me then under Islamic law?

i wouldnt say enemy,more like busy body..
if the matter involves muslims,theres nothing in the syariah law that is unjust.
deviate abit:
everyone keeps coming up about polygamy in Islam,that it is not fair.
1 husband,4 wives.
and that the husband is not required to let his first/second/third wife that he is marrying another woman.
but did you know that it is DISCOURAGED to have more than 1 wife,in Islam?
a muslim man MAY have more than 1,but only if it is an absolute must.
not only that,but he'd have to be loyal and fair to them.
in this day and age,being fair to one person is hard enough,let alone 4!
alot misinterpret the Quran,and simply marry as many as they want..

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
i have put forward so many points on equality amd speration of religion from state, but you already made up your mind that whatever is in ISLAM is correct, therefore every command no matter how cruel it seems must be carried out. i can tell that no amount of reasoning would sway you,so i am going to stop pushing this point. its just no use.

the inequality only comes into play when a non muslim is in the picture.
secular laws should be implemented if there is a non muslim involved,but the court still decides to use the syariah law...

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
EXACTLY  ! then why are you muslims enforcing ISLAMIC law? that is a contradiction of freewill !

only on muslims.
it has never been enforced on non muslims.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
thats what religious people, both christians and muslims have said time and time again hundreds of years ago, and many have already passed away. but then again, you would say that time is relative, right?

i dont get what you are trying to say here..

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:27 AM
yes, but remember, it can be changed. and it is still more Just than islamic law which is unchangable.

refer above

*my knowledge in Syariah law is shallow at best,so most of the above are my opinions...
if anyone knows better or sees something wrong,please let me know...im still learning

btw,sorry for the late late reply...was busy the whole week.

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 04:22 PM
i212,
Your excuse and explanation does not carry weight in support of what has been written.  Even reading the whole passage does not give a ligimate excuse. Whay would your Allah be so angry if one deos not believe Mohammed?

whomever that believes in Him(God) can still attain His blessings:

2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians  -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

eventhough God is angry with those who do not believe in His final words,He still is the Most Forgiving.

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 04:22 PM
So Allah is a jeal;ous GOD beside other GOD who have compassion and love for his creations?  

i cant speak on behalf of God,but IMO,not jealousy,more like pity.
He has given sufficient evidence in the Book to show His existence,yet many are ignorant about it,choose to believe only what they want to believe in...

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 04:22 PM
I think only SATAN would be jealous and angry and by the look of it Allah has the quality of that. The passage is full of hate and talk of punishment with fury which is not the quality of GOD but SATAN alone.  Striking off head and fingers? What kind of GOD is Allah who only think of doing harm to mankind instead of showing compassion and love. I do not have respect for such GOD if there is one as you claim.

there is a difference between slicing off fingers or killing people for no reason and doing so out of self defence/neccessity

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 04:22 PM
Why do Musims worry if an apostate speaks bad about Islam? If you think your religion is a true path whay should you worry about some silly human being saying otherwise.

because many people in this world are blind followers....or just plain blind.
EXAMPLE:
in australia,i think, many taxi drivers disallow blind people and their guide dogs from entering their taxis,giving the excuse that they're unclean.
where did this thinking come from?
from those who think that muslims are not allowed to touch unclean or unpure things.
this is a simple case of people following what others say,without doing any research or using their own eyes to read things which they dont know..

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 04:22 PM
Until and uless you have something to hide, may be the dark secret of Islam.  

there is nothing to hide,but if you just do a quick search on the internet,you can see many fake verses of the Quran,and many lies about The Prophet made up just to spread hatred towards Islam.
although they have been proven wrong time and time again,they never let up..
new ones keep cropping up again and again.
faithfreedom and answering islam are the two most famous sites,and alfloss gave some examples of text which claim to produce Islam in it's "true light",yet i personally have debunked them,with the real verses that are contained in the Quran.
if people were to open up their minds,forget about "islamic terrorists" and their supposed "jihad",then it wont be a problem.
but not many choose to do so,and many prefer to read lies and hate sites over truth,and proclaim it the truth!

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 04:22 PM
You cannot convince me that your religin is the only true path and the only way you can convert me is by killing me otherwise you cannotand never will be able to do so. As far as I'm concern Islam is evil to the core that it deprives the basic right to chose one's faith..

it does not.
give me a verse from the Quran that says all humans MUST be muslims(or something similiar)-oh,or are you stating an opinion?

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 05:01 PM
Don't you know about "WILL"? Why need Islamic law when you can write a will to your next of kin. You can decide whom to give and in what propotion. So, no need for Islamic law to teach us about division of property.

what if you forget to write your will?
you can die at any time,and if you forget to write your will,the government absorbs your funds.(not sure in malaysia,but in the UK,something like this happens alot)

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 05:01 PM
Just because a person diblieve your path should be punished? Why?  

it's not in the Quran,it is just a matter of whether or not the court wants to implement it..
many court rooms just take it as a light sentence..

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 05:01 PM
So, your religion is just a hoax and so you feel anger at whoever mock your religion.  

i would agree that it is a hoax,should it have been written or uttered by an educated person,yet it wasnt.
it was brought down by God through someone who couldnt write.
hoax?
far from it.

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 05:01 PM
If your is a true religion as you claimed why be angry let him mock for only he becomes the loser. But hwen you get angry and retaliate it becomes a question of who is right and who is wrong. Than there is no end to the argument and fist fight and blood shed. This wil continue for centuries. That is why Islam  converted others with sword one hand and quran in the other. Otherwise Iraq, Afghanistan and Persia of their original following and  well developed today. Islam had destroyed all that jsut because they refused to convert.

huh?
afghanistan,iraq,persia refused to convert to Islam?

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 05:01 PM
The bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer) is not only in Islam but in other religions too so that is not a landmark acheivement for Islam. Islam just followed other's path in paying homage to GOD. Going round the Kaaba is nothing new as you can see millions of Hindus going ropund the temple daily in respect to GOD and the house of prayer. Tell me something new that I do not know.

no other religion enforces the 5 times a day prayer.
i dont know how long other religion's prayers last,but i doubt it's anymore than 5 minutes.unless it's a special prayer of some kind

snipersnake

Originally posted by barney50 at 6-10-2006 06:53 PM
responded by snipersnake:


[quote
Yeh! Funny thing how Muslim scholars can twist history to their. Not one fragment of blood! Bhoooooooooooooooooo.

learn the history of the crusade, the american history, the europe history. i am not suprised that you are ignorant:


Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "There is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." But they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.
Al-i-'Imran                75
its normal and natural for the likes of you.

Yes, it's true in one direction where the "BLACK STONE" is placed. Indirect paganism is what Islam is all about. And for idol worship in heart is Mohammed. So make me understand.......

1, we dont worship the stone, we worship Allah. that sone is just a marker and a hisorical relic. yet another ignorant statement.

its not like we CARVED ALLAH'S FIGURE and worship it :lol  a man worshipping another man's creation..how HOLY is that..LOL

2. muhammad is prophet, just like Isa.we dont worship (or kill) prophets. thats just stupid. why would we worship the MESSENGER? better we worhip the MESSAGE SENDER. simple logic does apply.

Claudia_Lestat

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 25-9-2006 12:57 PM
so what? are the christians killing their apostates today? or even a 100 years ago? muslims are killing their apostates today!!!

Christianity had a 600 yeard head start than Islam, so give us say, 500 years  and we'll be equal then. By using the basic time ratio Islam now are at the period when Christians had the crusades and inquisition (an institution which still exist today albeit with different name) where the burning of witches and heretics (and Jews) are a common sport.

Regarding the love aspect, can any Christians here who claim Christianity is base on love, then why do you spend the first 2000 years of existance of actually hating the Jews and only after 2 millenia when Christianity as a whole become more secular change their hatred to the Jews to hatred of Islam and muslims ? :hmm:

i212

Originally posted by Claudia_Lestat at 15-10-2006 07:38 PM


Christianity had a 600 yeard head start than Islam, so give us say, 500 years  and we'll be equal then. By using the basic time ratio Islam now are at the period when Christians had the crusades and inquisition (an institution which still exist today albeit with different name) where the burning of witches and heretics (and Jews) are a common sport.

Regarding the love aspect, can any Christians here who claim Christianity is base on love, then why do you spend the first 2000 years of existance of actually hating the Jews and only after 2 millenia when Christianity as a whole become more secular change their hatred to the Jews to hatred of Islam and muslims ?

they will not answer.....

Mgsrulz

no answers yet...
hehehe...

Mgsrulz

so  no one can answer anything?

Mgsrulz

can anyone say anything?

SquiZZ

By Claudia_Lestat: Christianity had a 600 yeard head start than Islam, so give us say, 500 years  and we'll be equal then. By using the basic time ratio Islam now are at the period when Christians had the crusades and inquisition (an institution which still exist today albeit with different name) where the burning of witches and heretics (and Jews) are a common sport.

- We are in the 21st century lah brother, yet you're saying Islam is still in the state of the "Dark Ages". Taking that into consideration, what would make you think Islam going to change say another 1000 years?

Regarding the love aspect, can any Christians here who claim Christianity is base on love, then why do you spend the first 2000 years of existance of actually hating the Jews and only after 2 millenia when Christianity as a whole become more secular change their hatred to the Jews to hatred of Islam and muslims ?

- Christianity IS based on love. Thats the basic teaching of Jesus. We dont hate Islam. Islam hate us. They want to kill us wherever they find us.

benign

i dont see that as a fact squizz

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by SquiZZ at 4-11-2006 09:45 AM
Christianity IS based on love. Thats the basic teaching of Jesus. We dont hate Islam. Islam hate us. They want to kill us wherever they find us.

no facts,only opinions.

in that case i can post the love story everyone is talking about:
[quote]Few Christians know that Christianity is the result of love affair between Paul and Popea, which had failed. Paul despised both the Jews and Romans because Popea was Jewish and Nero was a Roman. They fell in love, and married each other, rejecting Paul completely.



The brokenhearted Paul (then) traveled to Arabia for three years to fabricate his new doctrines, which later became 揅hristianity

SquiZZ

By Mgsrulz: to read more,click this->the romantic origins of christianity.

- Not interested in reading fabricated love fairytales. :no: