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Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 25-12-2006 09:17 AM
Bible is based on evidence of whole Jewish nation and confirmed by tens of prophets. Islam is based on evidence of one man and not confirmed by any prophet. What is more reliable? 
Errr Bible - Collection of book which many content contradict each other.
Quran - A book content word of god |
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Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 25-12-2006 10:50 PM
1) Isaac together with Abraham and Sarah lived in land of Canaan till their death, while Ishmael with his mom were kicked. This is fact that even Muslims cant deny. And they can explain why it happ ...
Hello Nick...
obviously, u don't stick with the thread discussion...
i would like to remind u again...
we are discussing about who should be sacrificed...
was it Isaac or Ishmael...
instead running away from the topic...
why don't u try to deny this :nerd:
I know, but you will see the contradiction there. It is mentioned "shine only son Isaac." Shouldn't it be "shine only son Ishmael," when Ishmael was thirteen years old and Isaac had not even been born? When Isaac was born, Abraham had two sons. Because of chauvinism, the name of Ishmael was changed to Isaac in all of Genesis 22. But God has preserved the word "only" to show us what it should have been.
The words "I will multiply thy seed" in Genesis 22:17 was applied earlier to Ishmael in Genesis 16:10. Was not the whole of Genesis 22 applicable to Ishmael then? "I will make him a great nation" has been repeated twice for Ishmael in Genesis 17:20 and Genesis 16:10: "And the angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude."'
Genesis 17:20: "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. Twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."
Genesis 21:13: "And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."
Genesis 21:18: "Arise, lift up the lad [Ishmael], and hold him in shine hand, for I will make him a great nation."
Deuteronomy 21:15-17: "If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." Islam does not deny God's blessings on Isaac and his descendants, but the son of promise is Ishmael, from whom arose Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.
Originally posted by Nick Perelman
Arab fairy tales are considered as proof? LOOL
what fairy tales are u talking about...
the writer use Encyclopaedia Judaica as his first reference...
The Encyclopaedia Judaica is a 26-volume English-language encyclopedia of the Jewish people and their faith, Judaism. It covers diverse areas of the Jewish world and civilization, including Jewish history in all eras, culture, holidays, language, scripture, and religious teachings.
your own blood published that book...
so,why blame others ? :nerd:
[ Last edited by karengkang at 26-12-2006 07:16 PM ] |
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Originally posted by Iman_6 at 26-12-2006 12:39 PM
Psalms 84:5-6
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools ...
I asked a simple question: why Ishmael with his mom were kicked. Instead answering you spam some site.
Valley named Baca is located in Lebanon. However Bible talks about valley HABEKHA which means valley of tears in Hebrew.
Genesis 17:20: "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. Twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."
Genesis 21:13: "And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."
Genesis 21:18: "Arise, lift up the lad [Ishmael], and hold him in shine hand, for I will make him a great nation."
Deuteronomy 21:15-17: "If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." Islam does not deny God's blessings on Isaac and his descendants, but the son of promise is Ishmael, from whom arose Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.
Whats your point? God promised to make from Ishmael a great nation, BUT COVENANT WILL BE WITH ISAAC.
what fairy tales are u talking about...
the writer use Encyclopaedia Judaica as his first reference...
The Encyclopaedia Judaica is a 26-volume English-language encyclopedia of the Jewish people and their faith, Judaism. It covers diverse areas of the Jewish world and civilization, including Jewish history in all eras, culture, holidays, language, scripture, and religious teachings.
your own blood published that book...
so,why blame others ?
Encyclopedia simply is describing Islamic legends. Legend is silly for very simple reason. That if this alleged corruption happened, it was thousand years before Islam. So this so called Jew could not know any details of it.
But Mohammad is the founder of Islam. You mention "man" & just one man, but isn't he a prophet too?
Muhammad is a self proclaimed prophet like Joseph Smith. Even his own wife could not see how he was talking with angels.
Errr Bible - Collection of book which many content contradict each other.
Quran - A book content word of god
Bible is a book that was brought on mount Sinai when hundreds of thosaunds poeple were evident. Bible brought monotheism to earth. Bible brought prosperity.
Koran - book without single witness. It only repeats teachings of Bible. Countries that follow Koran are poor and undeveloped.
all the best,
Nick |
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Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 26-12-2006 10:37 PM
Whats your point? God promised to make from Ishmael a great nation, BUT COVENANT WILL BE WITH ISAAC.
Hello Nick...
u know what...
u never got my point because u never understand of what i'm trying to proof...
okay, since none of Jewish or Christian took Al-Quran as a valid source/arguement..
i only use Bible to prove it...
i will elaborate it in 2 point:
1- How God preserved His word
2- Jewish and Christian logic according Old Testament
1- How God preserved His word
because of chauvinism, the name of Ishmael was changed to Isaac in all of Genesis 22....
even though, God has preserved the word "only" to show us what it should have been. :nerd:
2- Jewish and Christian logic according Old Testament
Genesis 22:2
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
a) if Isaac is the only son of Abraham...then, Ishmael son of who ?
case A:
a - Nick Perelman have sex with a prostitute
b - Nick Perelman rape a girl
c - Nick Perelman have sex with his wife
if, those women were pregnant..
can u tell me, which one is Nick Perelman's child ?
1- A only
2- B only
3- C only
4- all of the above
Nick Perelman can fool anybody that he only have one son..
the one that he had with his wife..
but God knows that all the children is Nick Perelman's..
we can't fool God
case B:
a- from Nick Perelman's marriage,he have one child..not long after that his wife died
b- years later he married again and got another child...
now,how many is Nick Perelman's children ?
so, if we refer again to Gen 22:2.....
i can only got 2 conclusion:
1- God is a fool (because chose word "your only son"))
2- the word of God has been altered
erkk...wait..  :
we have to reject the first option...
because it's a fatal accusation towards God..
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Very simple. After Ishmael was kicked Isaac remained the only son of Abraham. So hard to understand?
Lets summarize:
We have two versions Bible version and Islamic (I dont write Koranic, because Koran does not say that Ishmael was sacrificed):
1)
* Bible version is original.
* Islamic is much later remake.
2)
* Bible verison is based on evidence of hundreds of thousands of people.
* Islamic version is baced on evidence of one man.
3)
* Bible version explains why Ishmael and his mom were kicked, while Isaac and Abraha, continued to live in Holy Land.
* Islamic version cant explain that.
4)
* Bible verion explains why Ishmaels descendants became pagans while Isaacs mainteined monotheism.
* Islamic verion cant explain that.
So which version is more reliable?
[ Last edited by Nick_Perelman at 27-12-2006 06:42 AM ] |
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Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 27-12-2006 06:34 AM
Very simple. After Ishmael was kicked Isaac remained the only son of Abraham. So hard to understand?
Lets summarize:
We have two versions Bible version and Islamic (I dont write Koranic, b ...
I doubt u are able to anwser my question regarding the anwser u have been produce in this thread.
My question is " which bible version"?
As far as I know the bible version that generally use by christian contain a lot of contradiction , I doubt u can use it to support ur argument. BTW I doubt u dare to object my point here |
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I am using original Hebrew Bible.
Contradictions are for those who search contradictions. |
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Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 27-12-2006 10:22 AM
I am using original Hebrew Bible.
Contradictions are for those who search contradictions.
mind share with us the so call original hebrew bible?
Contradiction will not exist if there is none unless there is. Duh |
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BTW , Nick pls continue this discussing this thread topic with reliable existing fact. |
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And u call it original hebrew bible just because it hosted in israel university and in hebrew language?
Duh duh duh.
Just simple as that? Duh
And which verse? |
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Ishmael or Isaac? The Koran or the Bible?
December 17, 2001
by Jason Jackson
Did Abraham offer Ishmael or Isaac? The Bible and the Koran differ on this issue. Which book is really divine revelation? Does it matter?
The Islamic holiday, Qurbani Id (or Id Al-Adha), is known as the ?acrifice Festival.? Muslims celebrate this ?reat feast of sacrifice? on the tenth day of the last month of the Muslim year. According to their doctrinal scheme, this day celebrates the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son by Hagar, Ishmael.
If you remember the Old Testament account, you will be somewhat perplexed. Was not Isaac the one whom God instructed Abraham to offer? The difference is this. Christians accept the testimony of the Bible. Muslims reject the Bible and believe the Koran (or Qur?n) contains the inspired, uncorrupted record. Who is right?
Although the Koran does not name the child whom Abraham was to sacrifice, Muslims believe it was Ishmael, and they believe that idea is supported by the Koran. One Muslim scholar, after citing a number texts from the Koran, concludes:
It is quite clear that Ishmael was the son to be sacrificed and not Isaac, peace be upon both of them. We also saw how corrupt the Bible is. The Bible is not reliable. It was badly tampered with by man? alterations and narrations, that we no longer can tell which parts of it are the True Living Words of GOD Almighty, and which aren?.
Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac, and Abraham loved GOD Almighty very much that he wanted to sacrifice his own son for Him. If Ishmael? name represents Abraham? gratefulness to GOD Almighty after a desperate long wait to have a son, then it makes perfect sense that Abraham wanted to sacrifice Ishmael to GOD Almighty by giving Him the most precious thing he ever had. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaac_and_ishmael.htm)
cont/.... |
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The issue is not so ?ho? is right, as if it were a personal dispute between two ?lasses? of people. The matter is not one of personalities, culture, or race. The issue is this: Which record contains the true, historical account? Will be believe the Bible, which names Isaac, or the claims of Muslim scholars who infer the name of the son from the Koran?
Some would contend that this is the kind of disagreement that never will be settled. Christians will accept the Bible. Muslims will side with the Koran. The discussion comes down to a ?our-word-against-mine? type of argument?t least in the eyes of some.
But the issue is more fundamental than that. The question is really this: Which book is the revelation of God? Both volumes claim inspiration, but obviously both cannot be inspired. The difference of ?saac versus Ishmael? is just one of hundreds of discrepancies between the Bible and the Koran. And many of these differences concern crucial themes (e.g., the nature of God, the identity of Christ, and God? plan of salvation).
Before one commits to a system of religion, it is necessary to inquire into the source of that religion. If the Bible is from heaven, then Christianity is the true religion. If the Koran is from God, then Islam is the genuine system.
Concerning the Bible, we observe that it is made up of a sort of ?NA code?a set of traits that identifies it as being from God. There are a number of identifying characteristics that reveal the Bible? divine origin.
The Scriptures, although recorded by approximately forty human writers, over a period of some 1500 years, contain an amazing unity of purpose and doctrine. This includes many prophecies, i.e., detailed predictions, that are later fulfilled perfectly. Although challenged by the most renowned skeptics, the Bible is found to be without error. It has been vindicated countless times. Men are ever trying to ?atch up? with the Scriptures.
But the Koran, despite its claims, lacks the marks of divine revelation. Its sub-standard treatment of women is no secret to anyone familiar with Islam. The book contains numerous historical inaccuracies and anachronisms, i.e., the chronological misplacement of persons, events, etc. Here is one example:
In relating the events of the exodus and the wilderness wandering, the Koran says, ?hey disbelieved the signs of God, and slew the Prophets unjustly? (cf. Sura 25:57-61). Who were ?he Prophets? in the wilderness? That expression,?he Prophets,? usually designates a special ministry of servants who lived at a later time in Israel? history. J. M. Rodwell notes: ?his passage [Sura 25:59] is one of the numerous anachronisms which abound in the Koran and prove the gross ignorance of the Arabian prophet? (Rodwell, J.M., trans. The Koran, Everyman? Library. New York: Dutton, 1909, p. 344).
Before us are two books. One is flawless and divine. It is the Bible. The other, the Koran, is error-ridden, the product of a self-styled prophet, who was no prophet at all. One encourages us to love our enemies; the other promotes conversion by force and Jihad?holy war.?
The Bible records that Abraham was willing to offer Isaac. The Koran, Muslim scholars claim, implies that Abraham was willing to offer Ishmael. The issue is: Which volume is God?? God? book is perfect, with a high moral tone. It is filled with marks of divine inspiration that are beyond the possibility of human production. That book is the Holy Bible. |
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Originally posted by Truth.8 at 27-12-2006 02:58 PM
The issue is not so ?ho? is right, as if it were a personal dispute between two ?lasses? of people. The matter is not one of personalities, culture, or race. The issue is this: Which record contain ...
err let me ask u the important question.
Which one we need to refer to to anwser the thread owner question?
Quran - Books contain Word of god
or
Bible - Collection of book which contradict each other? |
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KENNKID This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by anti_aktivis at 27-12-2006 03:25 PM
err let me ask u the important question.
Which one we need to refer to to anwser the thread owner question?
Quran - Books contain Word of god
or
Bible - Collection of book which ...
Yes, God's revelation The Qur'an says it was Ishmael |
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Originally posted by anti_aktivis at 27-12-2006 03:25 PM
err let me ask u the important question.
Which one we need to refer to to anwser the thread owner question?
Quran - Books contain Word of god
or
Bible - Collection of book which ...
u should ask: why all Jewish peoples rejected muhammad? than u now who make the contradiction. |
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Hello Nick...
u know what..
u makes me laugh again and again..
erkkk how should i put this....
u are soOo Jewish
:lol
Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 27-12-2006 06:34 AM
Very simple. After Ishmael was kicked Isaac remained the only son of Abraham. So hard to understand?
"remained the only son" :lol
this is what they (the corrupter) want u to believe...
maybe they forgot to delete the word "only son" when they altered that verse
why i said this ??
because....again, it show how stupid is God
example:
- Nick Perelman have 2 cars..because of financial problem, he have to sell one of his cars...now,he only have one car...years later, Nick Perelman's next neighbour want to borrow his car...
question: do the neighbour have to ask "i want to borrow your car, your only car........??? :lol
i would say the neighbour is STUPID !
so, we go back to Gen 22 verse.. (OT)
didn't God already knows there is only one son that left..
but He still says "..your son, your only son..."
is God that stupid ?? :
* Bible version is original.
* Islamic is much later remake.
Torah and Injeel original version is corrupted by Jewish
use your logic and make cross check..
guess what, Al-Quran tells u the direct answer for the contradictions..
Bible verison is based on evidence of hundreds of thousands of people.
* Islamic version is baced on evidence of one man.
evidence of hundreds of people but still there are many contradiction...
Luke said this...Mark said that..John said yes...Matthew said no
too many writers..
hah...
Al-Quran doesn't need any evidence from man..
It only has one writer (which is God)
Bible version explains why Ishmael and his mom were kicked, while Isaac and Abraha, continued to live in Holy Land.
* Islamic version cant explain that.
yeah rite..
there also contradictions in that "mocking" verse.. :nerd:
but i don't want to discuss it now
Bible verion explains why Ishmaels descendants became pagans while Isaacs mainteined monotheism.
* Islamic verion cant explain that.
please show me which verse said that Ishmael became pagan ?
erkk...are u trying to run from the topic again ?? |
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Originally posted by Truth.8 at 27-12-2006 04:57 PM
u should ask: why all Jewish peoples rejected muhammad? than u now who make the contradiction.
First - please do correction on ur posting. Not all jewish rejected Muhammad.
Second - Why off topic. We are discussing about fact use to anwser thread owner question.
Third - For Muslim ,Jewish also responsible in Prophet Isa killing attempt.
For Christian, Jewish is behind so call jesus killing. --------------------- So?
Dun forget , which one u rely for thread owner question , Quran (book contain word of god) or bible that full of contradiction.
Duh I feel wieard no body dare to question my announcement about bible full of contradiction.
[ Last edited by anti_aktivis at 27-12-2006 05:29 PM ] |
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Iman_6 This user has been deleted
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I asked a simple question: why Ishmael with his mom were kicked. Instead answering you spam some site. Nick Perelman
That site that you called spam happened to have valid references from non-muslim sources:
References
[1] Edward Gibbon (Introduction by Christopher Dawson), Gibbon's Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, Everyman's Library, London, pp. 223-224.
[2] Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.
[3] D G Hogarth, The Penetration Of Arabia, Alston Rivers Limited, London, 1905, p. 18.
[4] G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19.
[5] The Jewish Encylopedia, Volume II, Funk & Wagnalls Company, MDCCCCII, p. 415.
[6] David Noel Freedman (Editor-in-Chief), The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Volume I, Doubleday, p. 566. |
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Originally posted by Truth.8 at 27-12-2006 04:57 PM
u should ask: why all Jewish peoples rejected muhammad? than u now who make the contradiction.
all ?
please study again..
one more thing..
if u really know what is Anti Aktivis ask for..
u would realize that Muslim has nothing to do with contradiction in the Bible..
Christian created it themselves..
- too many writers
- each party translated the Bible their own way..
- each pary think that they are "inspired" and "guided" by The True God of Bible
:lol |
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Post time 26-12-2006 06:34 PM
