The evil that had blinded Muslims

eastrun · Post time 2-3-2007 09:57 PM

1)
You need to repeat the same without logic. I told you GOD is All Knower and HE knows if your faith in HIM is sincere or not. So why does HE need to test you? So, if I question your illogical reply I'm labled as NYAYUK? Looks like you've been thought by your religious teachers to evade issues that Musims do not understand by calling others names. If your Allah wnats to test Muslims it means he does not know what is in your heart and so he is not the Al Knower after all.

My answer:
Maybe the short verse is not enough for you...so I post a long verse...:

"When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying
down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he
passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!" (Surah Yunus 10:12)

This is the meaning of all suffers He gives to you, so THAT YOU WILL REMEMBER HIM.CLEAR?.

2)
I gather from your reply that your knowledge in the Al" Mighty is limited.

My answer:

I am not...but you did.You said His knowledge should be ours too.What He knows...we also need to know.Then, who is limiting the power of the Almighty?.You. My religion teaches God is God...creation is creation...but you mix both in one...like a bottle of shampoo.

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3)
Of course I underdstand but do you? It's you who says Allah test his followers but I say GOD does not need to test as HE knows what lies in your heart. So, who is lacking in the knowlegde of the Al Mighty?

My answers:
It is clear enough...the above verse explained everything you wanted to know.That is Al Mighty and Merciful of ALLAH.So that you will always remember Him. Supported with this verse:

"Let the man of means spend according to his means: and the man whose
resources are restricted, let him spend according to what God has given him. God puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him. After a difficulty, God will soon grant relief"(Surah A-Thaalaq 65:7)

Clear?

4)First you say people of knowledge knows the secret and now you say they don't. Which is which? Either you stick to your claim otherwise just admit you have no knowledge. Listen, we Hindus are an expert in knowledge of the soul which early Christians refuse to believe but now accept the Hindu theory. The soul or Atman as we call is immortal. There is no death for soul. You cannot kill it nor destroy it. IT's ever living because it comes from GOD and goes back to GOD. As long as GOD is there so will the soul be. Understand that if your religion does not teach you about it. Angles can come in any from but in reality they are in spirit form because they are sent down by GOD like our soul that comes from HIM. It's a pity your religion is ignorant of such facts

My answer:

The misunderstood happened because you tried to be like God.Tried to know what He knows.That's why you became like this after 25 years of research.

Read this with the bolded word:

"The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it
flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire" (Surah Ar-Ra'd 13:35)

What Allah said about heavens are PARABLE..because they are not able to be seen by human eyes. Only ALLAH who created those heavens knows how it is. So, whatever you think about heavens, it is invalid and unacceptable, because you are not God!.

About soul..even though you know what is soul, you still cannot imagine, HOW IT LOOKS..THE ACTUAL ROLE OF THE SOUL and etc.

When the people asked Muhammad about SOUL, he answered(with Allah permission):

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit
(cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is
communicated to you, (O men!)"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:25)

It is the secret of Allah.But He told us to believe the existence of SPIRIT/SOUL.Just like He told the Hindus, the Christians....But HOW THE SPIRIT LOOKS, only He knows!!

We also believe in angels:

""Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here
on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a
terrific onslaught, God made it but a message of hope for you, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from God. The Exalted, the Wise:" (Surah Al-Imran 3:126)

But how the look like..only ALLAH knows. That was what I am trying to tell you.We just know small part about them, even though you claimed you are an expert in Angels and spirits. But you will never be able to imagine the actual looks of them!!!

5)
Read my sentense, "Mulisms make HIM look like mortal". But we understand HIM as HE has no beginning nor an end, HE is formless and HE can be in a form, HE is inside as well as outside and HE can be here and everywhere. That is GOD.

My answer:

Muslims didn't but Hindus did. Because they made the God from rock and then claimed the rock, the cow as God. Things that can never used thier mind to think.I never expected that I will meet persons that undergrading the power of God, and then claimed they didn;t.

6)
That is what it says but that is not what Mohammed your prophet practiced. He had slaves and he ensalved those who fought against him. He traded in salves and he slept with slave women. That is a fact and you have to live with it

My answer:

Slave women?. He slept with his wives.I wonder if you call a husband that sleeps with his wife...then you call his wife as slave.So, why don't you call your mother as your father's slave?

He never kept the slaves:

"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he
may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge" (Surah At-Taubah 9:6)

He is merciful with them.Unless they insult the religion.He never traded the slaves...nowhere in the Holy Quran.

Who knows, you are the one who loves to see pornography...until you think wife and slave is in one same medium.Kesian...

[ Last edited by eastrun at 2-3-2007 09:59 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 3-3-2007 08:43 AM

Reply #41 eastrun's post

by eastrun:
Maybe the short verse is not enough for you...so I post a long verse...:
"When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying
down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he
passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that
touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!" (Surah Yunus 10:12)
This is the meaning of all suffers He gives to you, so THAT YOU WILL REMEMBER HIM.CLEAR?.

Copy the Code

An atheist do and communist do not so what is the use of the above verse? The atheist or communist have no faith in GOD or his existence so what makes you think that such verse is aplicable to all mankind?

by eastrun::
I am not...but you did.You said His knowledge should be ours too.What
He knows...we also need to know.Then, who is limiting the power of the
Almighty?.You. My religion teaches God is God...creation is
creation...but you mix both in one...like a bottle of shampoo.

Copy the Code

Ae you trying to twist in order to confuse? You said Allah test man but I said GOD need not test as HE knows what lies in a man's heart. HE will know if you are a true believer who has faith and would know if you are pretendeing to be a faithful follower. That is the power of GOD but as for your Allah he does not know and so he need to put you to test. That is what all Muslims think that Allah is testing but we do not feel that way because we know GOD knows if man is pretending or really faithful to HIM. That is the difference between a Muslim and a Hindu.

by eastrun:
It is clear enough...the above verse explained everything you wanted to
know.That is Al Mighty and Merciful of ALLAH.So that you will always
remember Him. Supported with this verse:
"Let the man of means spend according to his means: and the man whose
resources are restricted, let him spend according to what God has given him. God puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him. After a difficulty, God will soon grant relief"(Surah A-Thaalaq 65:7)
Clear?

Copy the Code

Is that how Muslims console themselves when in trouble? Hello! All the troubles Muslims or non Muslims face are of their own doing and nothing to do with GOD. GOD is only a wittness to all our actions. Whatever we do is our own action and we are responssible for our own action. And that my friend is the law of Karma.

by eastrun:
The misunderstood happened because you tried to be like God.Tried to
know what He knows.That's why you became like this after 25 years of
research.
Read this with the bolded word:
"The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it
flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein:
such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the
Fire" (Surah Ar-Ra'd 13:35)
What Allah said about heavens are PARABLE..because they are not able to
be seen by human eyes. Only ALLAH who created those heavens knows how
it is. So, whatever you think about heavens, it is invalid and
unacceptable, because you are not God!.

Copy the Code

You reply is not related to my statement. So, this is how you escape from difficult questions? Not being able to reply but divert the issue to something else? It is Muslims and well as Christians who fail to understand. Even Jesus at told that paradise is at hand. Do you know what it means? It means the haven we dream of and told in the bible is right here but people like you fail to see it. Instead you are making it into a hell by making your life miserable. Live in peace with all others and be loving and caring to all and this world would be a haven. That is the whole matter here about haven and hell, not some world up there which Muslims and Christians dream.

by eastrun:
About soul..even though you know what is soul, you still cannot imagine, HOW IT LOOKS..THE ACTUAL ROLE OF THE SOUL and etc.
When the people asked Muhammad about SOUL, he answered(with Allah permission):
"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit
(cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is
communicated to you, (O men!)"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:25)

Copy the Code

I told you it is formless and your body that it occupies is only a temporary abode. The problem with Muslims is that they you associate themsleves with the soul in them. The moment a person dies the soul departs because the body does not belong to it . It has taken that beody to fulfill its destiny and upon completion it will depart to take another and that my friend is a fact and truth about soul. The Quran is limited in knowledge of the soul because MOhammed is ignorant about it. From it we can perceive that it cannot be a divine inspriration.

by eastrun:
It is the secret of Allah.But He told us to believe the existence of
SPIRIT/SOUL.Just like He told the Hindus, the Christians....But HOW THE
SPIRIT LOOKS, only He knows!!
We also believe in angels:
""Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here
on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a
terrific onslaught, God made it but a message of hope for you, and
an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from
God. The Exalted, the Wise:" (Surah Al-Imran 3:126)
But how the look like..only ALLAH knows. That was what I am trying to
tell you.We just know small part about them, even though you claimed
you are an expert in Angels and spirits. But you will never be able to
imagine the actual looks of them!!!

Copy the Code

No, there is no secret because GOD gave us the knowledge to understand it. Islam has made you into an ignorant human being as like all other Muslims are made to be. We are here to learn the truth about our existence and not live in ignorance. Silly boy! Who do you think angels are? The have the in spirit fomr and have the power to influence human beings. When you are in times of trouble such as in need of money for your sick child what would you do? You appeal top the public for donation in the media but do the whole of 26 million people in the country respond to your appeal? No only a certain percentage and that percentage was influenced by the angels. And that my friend is how angels help man but remember that help will only come if your karma is good otherwise you will not get and help. That is why even after getting the help some do not survive. All this are related to the karma of the parents and the child. This are the secrets that GOD wants us to know and not hidden as Muslims believe.

by eatrun:
Muslims didn't but Hindus did. Because they made the God from rock and
then claimed the rock, the cow as God. Things that can never used thier
mind to think.I never expected that I will meet persons that
undergrading the power of God, and then claimed they didn;t.

Copy the Code

The faith in GOD is more stronger in our belief that you Muslims. Let me give you an illustration. What would happen to a child being brought up without the presence of the father? Let say the father is away working in another country and never gets to see his growing child while the mother showers all the love and no proper up bringing? That child would grow up to be a ruffian with no respect to the elders or caring for others. But if the father is close to the child it grow up with proper moral up bringing as the child fears the father would cane him if he makes a mistake. It is the same with our faith, we have the statues in remembrance of GOD and feel HE is closer to us and the fear of being punished is instilled in our heart. But as for Muslims they think GOD is not present here but somewhere up there and so they do not fear GOD but pretend to be faithfull. As I have said GOD knows what lies in your heart and you cannot cheat HIM. So, mocking our belief is like mocking GOD and that my friend would be paid by you and all those who mock our faith.

by eastrun:
Slave women?. He slept with his wives.I wonder if you call a husband
that sleeps with his wife...then you call his wife as slave.So, why
don't you call your mother as your father's slave?
He never kept the slaves:
"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he
may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge" (Surah At-Taubah 9:6)
He is merciful with them.Unless they insult the religion.He never traded the slaves...nowhere in the Holy Quran.
Who knows, you are the one who loves to see pornography...until you think wife and slave is in one same medium.Kesian...

Copy the Code

My ignorant friend, you are blinded by your own ignorance. read the whole hadith and you'll know what I'm saying. I do not just blindly claim this and that but only what has been said about Mohammed in ythe hadith. But if you believe what you believe so be it.

eastrun · Post time 3-3-2007 11:59 AM

1)An atheist do and communist do not so what is the use of the above verse? The atheist or communist have no faith in GOD or his existence so what makes you think that such verse is aplicable to all mankind

My answer:

The core topic was, why God gives a test to us, His creation. And suddenly you changed the topic once you have no answer to be raised.

Of course the verse not applicable for the atheist because they have no faith in Him and they don't even want to ask help from God. But, still God gives them the test so that they may return, but unfortunately, they never want to.

So, please go back to the core topic,don't change it once you are almost speechless. He wants us to remember Him.

And is this how a person who has done 25 years research to escape from difficulty?.

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2)
Ae you trying to twist in order to confuse? You said Allah test man but I said GOD need not test as HE knows what lies in a man's heart. HE will know if you are a true believer who has faith and would know if you are pretendeing to be a faithful follower. That is the power of GOD but as for your Allah he does not know and so he need to put you to test. That is what all Muslims think that Allah is testing but we do not feel that way because we know GOD knows if man is pretending or really faithful to HIM. That is the difference between a Muslim and a Hindu.

My answer:

You twisted the fact the verses that I have posted before clear enough that He gave the test so that we(those who believe, may return).

If you still remember, in the Holy Quran and Holy Bible, the Jews were very special in the eyes of God, until they forgot the God and claimed that the heavens are only for them!. And Allah said:

Say: "If the last Home, with God, be for you specially, and not for anyone
else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere.ut they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and God is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:95)

Allah already know that the Jews made lots of sins (even though the Jews claimed that they are holy enough) and He asked Muhammad to ask the above question as a TEST FOR THE JEWS!.Reason?. To show to Muhammad which Jews obeyed Him and which one rejected Him.This is how Allah safe Muhammad from the wrong-doers!!.Not because He didn't know the Jews.

So, they are many reasons why Allah gave the test. In different time and in different place.It is nothing to do in limiting His All-Knower charactheristic!.

You never heard the story above?.25 years gone, and you never heard it?.Pity you, Silly ignorant!
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3)
Is that how Muslims console themselves when in trouble? Hello! All the troubles Muslims or non Muslims face are of their own doing and nothing to do with GOD. GOD is only a wittness to all our actions. Whatever we do is our own action and we are responssible for our own action. And that my friend is the law of Karma.

My answer:
Yes! what we do now will affect us in future. Allah taught us also!.

"The Companions of the Left Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Left
Hand?.(They will be) in the midst of a Fierce Blast of Fire and in Boiling Water,And in the shades of Black Smoke:Nothing (will there be) to refresh, nor to please:For that they were wont to be indulged, before that, in wealth (and luxury),And persisted obstinately in wickedness supreme!" (Surah A-Waaqiah 56:41~46)

You do wrong, you will be punished, you do good deeds, you will be rewarded.He
is the witness and that is why He is qualified to punishing and rewarding.Then, what is wrong with Islam teaching?.What are you trying to raised?

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4)
You reply is not related to my statement. So, this is how you escape from difficult questions? Not being able to reply but divert the issue to something else? It is Muslims and well as Christians who fail to understand. Even Jesus at told that paradise is at hand. Do you know what it means? It means the haven we dream of and told in the bible is right here but people like you fail to see it. Instead you are making it into a hell by making your life miserable. Live in peace with all others and be loving and caring to all and this world would be a haven. That is the whole matter here about haven and hell, not some world up there which Muslims and Christians dream.

My answer:

4)
My friend, you are twisting Jesus's words. He didn't say the heaven is here. If the heaven is here, what for he went up to heaven?.Read this:

"who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. " (Acts 1:11)

Only you who said that the heaven is here. The Christians, the Jews and the Muslims believe the heaven is not here.

In the book of Psalms also claimed the same thing:

"Jehovah(God) looketh from heaven; He beholdeth all the sons of men;"
(Psalms 33:13)

"Till Jehovah (God) look down, and behold from heaven"(Lamentations 3:50)

"beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:22)

Jesus went up!.

The verses above clearly stated that the heaven is not on earth!!.You twisted Jesus's words!!.

The core topic was, how the heaven looks like, any I have answered briefly, and you changed the topic already.Read the previous post.Cakap macam budak-budak.

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5)I told you it is formless and your body that it occupies is only a temporary abode. The problem with Muslims is that they you associate themsleves with the soul in them. The moment a person dies the soul departs because the body does not belong to it . It has taken that beody to fulfill its destiny and upon completion it will depart to take another and that my friend is a fact and truth about soul. The Quran is limited in knowledge of the soul because MOhammed is ignorant about it. From it we can perceive that it cannot be a divine inspriration.

My answer:
We also believe that the soul is in the formless body because it cannot be seen by human eyes, but as human, we don't really know the exact shape/form of the soul.I ask you, please show me how the soul looks like if you are an expert!.But, until now, you only weighless statement without prove.And this is what happens when you try to know His knowledge!!.

If the verse is not a divine revelation, of course you will know the exact infos about the soul. The verse shows that only Allah knows, because it is His knowledge.
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6)
No, there is no secret because GOD gave us the knowledge to understand it. Islam has made you into an ignorant human being as like all other Muslims are made to be. We are here to learn the truth about our existence and not live in ignorance. Silly boy! Who do you think angels are? The have the in spirit fomr and have the power to influence human beings. When you are in times of trouble such as in need of money for your sick child what would you do? You appeal top the public for donation in the media but do the whole of 26 million people in the country respond to your appeal? No only a certain percentage and that percentage was influenced by the angels. And that my friend is how angels help man but remember that help will only come if your karma is good otherwise you will not get and help. That is why even after getting the help some do not survive. All this are related to the karma of the parents and the child. This are the secrets that GOD wants us to know and not hidden as Muslims believe.

My answer:
You are not reading my post clearly. I quote once again the verse:

"Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here
on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a
terrific onslaught, God made it but a message of hope for you, and
an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from
God. The Exalted, the Wise:"(Surah Al-Imran 3:126)

Did the verse said that the help came from the angels?.Of course no!!.It came from Allah by using the angels.See the bolded words!!.

Muslims believe the role of angels as mentioned below:

"By the (Winds) sent forth one after another (to man's profit);Which then blow violently in tempestuous Gusts,And scatter (things) far and wide;Then separate them, one from another,Then spread abroad a Message,Whether of Justification or of Warning;-" (Surah Al-Mursalaat 77:1~6)

Winds above are angels. Meaning it can't be seen by eyes but has many roles as mentioned above.The help came from Allah, but He used the angels because the angels is his creations and He is qualified to assign them any tasks.

Of course the wrong doers won't get such help.

Well, the core topic, how the angels looks like, but you changed the topic once again.Choosing Hindusm as a religion made you become a person that like to cakap macam orang bodoh!!.

To be continued...

[ Last edited by eastrun at 3-3-2007 12:04 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 3-3-2007 12:00 PM

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7)
The faith in GOD is more stronger in our belief that you Muslims. Let me give you an illustration. What would happen to a child being brought up without the presence of the father? Let say the father is away working in another country and never gets to see his growing child while the mother showers all the love and no proper up bringing? That child would grow up to be a ruffian with no respect to the elders or caring for others. But if the father is close to the child it grow up with proper moral up bringing as the child fears the father would cane him if he makes a mistake. It is the same with our faith, we have the statues in remembrance of GOD and feel HE is closer to us and the fear of being punished is instilled in our heart. But as for Muslims they think GOD is not present here but somewhere up there and so they do not fear GOD but pretend to be faithfull. As I have said GOD knows what lies in your heart and you cannot cheat HIM. So, mocking our belief is like mocking GOD and that my friend would be paid by you and all those who mock our faith.

My answer:
My friend. clearly you don't understand the teaching of Islam. We Muslims, believe that Allah is everywhere but He is not incarnate.He is near with us:

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I
listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way."
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:186)

He is near, but He is not us!.Clear?.Remember!!.God is God, creations are creations.Don't mix them up.

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8)
My ignorant friend, you are blinded by your own ignorance. read the whole hadith and you'll know what I'm saying. I do not just blindly claim this and that but only what has been said about Mohammed in ythe hadith. But if you believe what you believe so be it

My answer:
Before reading the Hadith, read the Holy Quran first in order to determine which one is true, which one is false. So, since it is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Quran, certainly you read the false one, and finally you become the one who rejected the faith.I asked you, show me a verse in the holy Quran shows that Muhammad kept slave women...Why are you turned away?.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 3-3-2007 12:03 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 3-3-2007 04:53 PM

Reply #43 eastrun's post
The core topic was, why God gives a test to us, His creation. And
suddenly you changed the topic once you have no answer to be raised. Of course the verse not applicable for the atheist because they have no
faith in Him and they don't even want to ask help from God. But, still
God gives them the test so that they may return, but unfortunately,
they never want to. So, please go back to the core topic,don't change it once you are almost speechless. He wants us to remember Him. And is this how a person who has done 25 years research to escape from difficulty?.

Copy the Code

The topic is the same but as I understand it's you who needs to be educated. Atheist too are HIS creation and they too live by their principle and live in peace without troubling others but Muslims hwo say theybelieve in GOD create a whole lot of trouble by killing innocent peole in the name of Allah their beloved God. As I have said I believe in GOD Al' Mighty but I do not believe in the crap yo call test. That's for Muslims but not for me because I know GOD does not need to test us, HE knows all things and HE is aware of all that is happening. You are answerable to your own action aand blaming GOD is like escaping from the reality of your own mistakes. That is a afct and Musims are blind to that fact.

by eastrun:
You twisted the fact the verses that I have posted before clear enough
that He gave the test so that we(those who believe, may return). If you still remember, in the Holy Quran and Holy Bible, the Jews
were very special in the eyes of God, until they forgot the God and
claimed that the heavens are only for them!. And Allah said:
Say: "If the last Home, with God, be for you specially, and not for anyone
else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere.ut they will never
seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on
before them. and God is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:95)

Copy the Code

All are equal in the eyes of GOD. There is no special chosen people. If the Jews believe so it is their business but the truth is all are equal in the eyes of GOD. Hindus, Jews, Jains, Buddhist, Christians, Sikhs, Muslims, Atheist and including all trible people of all nations are equal in the eyes of GOD. Its's man of race and religion that divided the unity of mankind. So do not put the blame on GOD. HE is laughing at you lots. Now here the verse contradicts by saying and God is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:95) and yet you say Allah test the faithfull. I have exposed the myth of this verse my friend and I believe Al-Baqarah was a liar.

by eastrun:
Allah already know that the Jews made lots of sins (even though the
Jews claimed that they are holy enough) and He asked Muhammad to ask
the above question as a TEST FOR THE JEWS!.Reason?. To show to Muhammad
which Jews obeyed Him and which one rejected Him.This is how Allah safe
Muhammad from the wrong-doers!!.Not because He didn't know the Jews. So, they are many reasons why Allah gave the test. In different time
and in different place.It is nothing to do in limiting His All-Knower
charactheristic!. You never heard the story above?.25 years gone, and you never heard it?.Pity you, Silly ignorant!

Copy the Code

This is another lie to delude Muslims inot believing that Muhammed was right and the Jews were wrong. My dear friend the experience in life and the knowledge I have gained helps me in knowing the truth and not lies which you believe. Your Quran doesn not in any way conviencing nor does it seem to be the word of GOD. And that my friend is the solomen truth.

by eastrun:
Yes! what we do now will affect us in future. Allah taught us also!.
"The Companions of the Left Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Left
Hand?.(They will be) in the midst of a Fierce Blast of Fire and in
Boiling Water,And in the shades of Black Smoke:Nothing (will there be)
to refresh, nor to please:For that they were wont to be indulged, before that, in wealth (and luxury),And persisted obstinately in wickedness supreme!" (Surah A-Waaqiah 56:41~46)
You do wrong, you will be punished, you do good deeds, you will be rewarded.He
is the witness and that is why He is qualified to punishing and
rewarding.Then, what is wrong with Islam teaching?.What are you trying
to raised?

Copy the Code

Whole lot of things are wrong with Islam. At first you deny karma and now you say Muslims to believe in it. You mind is not fixed my friend. Man is born here for a purpose and when that purpose is fulfilled the soul leaves the body and that truth is only known to us. But you come out with meaningless verses and complictae yourself.

by eastrun:
My friend, you are twisting Jesus's words. He didn't say the heaven is
here. If the heaven is here, what for he went up to heaven?.Read this:
"who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. " (Acts 1:11)

Copy the Code

So silly. Boy! You are an ignorant Muslim. He said that for man and not for himself. Don't you still know who he is? He came down for a purpose and he left upon completin of his mission here. He said haven is at had and that means for man this earth is a haven as we have all that we need to survive. But man bing greedy wanted more and more and so we made this earth into a hell and soo it will start burning and with it all of us will burn and that is know as burning ih hell. You as many Muslims and Christians take it literally what was told. But if it is your fate to believe that haven and hell is up there who can stop that. Go on believing..........

b eastrun:
Only you who said that the heaven is here. The Christians, the Jews and the Muslims believe the heaven is not here.
In the book of Psalms also claimed the same thing:
"Jehovah(God) looketh from heaven; He beholdeth all the sons of men;"
(Psalms 33:13)
"Till Jehovah (God) look down, and behold from heaven"(Lamentations 3:50)
"beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:22)
Jesus went up!. The verses above clearly stated that the heaven is not on earth!!.You twisted Jesus's words!!.
The core topic was, how the heaven looks like, any I have answered
briefly, and you changed the topic already.Read the previous post.Cakap
macam budak-budak.

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As I have said above thats is what Muslims and Christians believe so but not us. We know the real truth while you live in delusion.

by eastrun:
We also believe that the soul is in the formless body because it cannot
be seen by human eyes, but as human, we don't really know the exact
shape/form of the soul.I ask you, please show me how the soul looks
like if you are an expert!.But, until now, you only weighless statement
without prove.And this is what happens when you try to know His
knowledge!!.
If the verse is not a divine revelation, of course you will know the
exact infos about the soul. The verse shows that only Allah knows,
because it is His knowledge.

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Again asking silly question. When I say spirits are formless and you keep asking in what form. Looks like I'm debating with a child of low IQ. Sorry for that coz it's my mistake as I thought yu to be an adult.

by eastrun:
You are not reading my post clearly. I quote once again the verse:
"Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here
on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a
terrific onslaught, God made it but a message of hope for you, and
an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from
God. The Exalted, the Wise:"(Surah Al-Imran 3:126)
Did the verse said that the help came from the angels?.Of course
no!!.It came from Allah by using the angels.See the bolded words!!.

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You can take it anyway you want. Five thousand angels or with power of five thousand angels. The curzx of the matter is GOD does not interfere untill and unless a whole nation of people are in danger. HE does not need to help an individual because an individual's life is based on his own action. You believe is baseless and meaningless.

[code]by eastrun:

Muslims believe the role of angels as mentioned below:

"By the (Winds) sent forth one after another (to man'sprofit);Which then blow violently in tempestuous Gusts,And scatter(things) far and wide;Then separate them, one from another,Then spreadabroad a Message,Whether of Justification or of Warning;-" (Surah Al-Mursalaat 77:1~6)

Winds above are angels. Meaning it can't be seen by eyes but has manyroles as mentioned above.The help came from Allah, but He used theangels because the angels is his creations and He is qualified toassign them any tasks.

Of course the wrong doers won't get such help.

Well, the core topic, how the angels looks like, but you changed thetopic once again.Choosing Hindusm as a religion made you become aperson that like to cakap macam orang bodoh!!.[code]

This is the most stupidest assumption. It we Hindus who believe in the Pancha Bhootas [the 5 elements] which are WATER, FIRE, WIND, EARTH and ETHER. These elements control the everything which will effect the lives of all human beings. But that is anothe subject that we can debate on if you have the knowledge on it. Looks like its you who cakap bodoh di sini.Faham tak?

To be continued...

barney50 · Post time 3-3-2007 05:13 PM

sambungan

by eastrun:
My friend. clearly you don't understand the teaching of Islam. We
Muslims, believe that Allah is everywhere but He is not incarnate.He is
near with us:
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I
listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them
also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may
walk in the right way."
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:186)
He is near, but He is not us!.Clear?.Remember!!.God is God, creations are creations.Don't mix them up.

Copy the Code

Can I argue with an ignorant? We are not GOD but GOD is in us stupid. The air we breath in is GOD, the power that generates energy in us is GOD. If you deny that than you are an atheist but pretend to be a believer. I think if all Muslims think like you than I would say MUslims are kafirs.

by eastrun:
Before reading the Hadith, read the Holy Quran first in order to
determine which one is true, which one is false. So, since it is not
mentioned anywhere in the Holy Quran, certainly you read the false one,
and finally you become the one who rejected the faith.I asked you, show
me a verse in the holy Quran shows that Muhammad kept slave women...Why
are you turned away?.

Copy the Code

33:50 -"rophet, We have made lawful to you thewives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has givenyou as booty."

Ibn Sa'd's "Tabaqat",gives a clear description of Muhammad having "relations" with atleast one of his slave girls. Muhammadhad sexual relations with Mariyah, his Coptic slave. Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts toMuhammad. Muhammad gave Sirin to HasanThabit, the poet. Ibn Sa'd says thatMuhammad "liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair andpretty." [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's"Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" [Book of the Major Classes), p151]..

eastrun · Post time 4-3-2007 10:45 AM

1)
The topic is the same but as I understand it's you who needs to be educated. Atheist too are HIS creation and they too live by their principle and live in peace without troubling others but Muslims hwo say theybelieve in GOD create a whole lot of trouble by killing innocent peole in the name of Allah their beloved God. As I have said I believe in GOD Al' Mighty but I do not believe in the crap yo call test. That's for Muslims but not for me because I know GOD does not need to test us, HE knows all things and HE is aware of all that is happening. You are answerable to your own action aand blaming GOD is like escaping from the reality of your own mistakes. That is a afct and Musims are blind to that fact.

My answer:

The core topic was why God gave test to us. And I have explained that one of the reason, HE WANTS US TO REMEMBER HIM. Another reason, during Muhammad period, that is the way He showed Muhammad which followers obeyed and disobeyed,and there are many other reasons why Allah gave the test. He is God and of course He is qualified to give anything like test/rewards and punishment you.You beileve in the Al-Mighty.But I don't think so, because the way you talked/wrote, it was like you are tring to be as same as level as Him.

And suddenly now, you changed the topic again.Suddenly you talked about Muslims are killing and causing war and etc. Which, obviously faraway from the core topic.AND ABOUT THE KILLING, I have told and explained that to you.Don't want to waste my time repeating same topic.You are old, and you forgot the explanations already,perhaps.

I don't care about the ATHEIST.It is thier right to do what they think it is the best for them.Since they are atheists, please don't put them into the religion topic because they are excluded.They have no faith and not beileve in the Almighty God.I wonder, why you always use persons which have no faith in any religions in this discussion.

You need to be educated, but I don't know how, because no matter how brief the explanation is, with true evidences, still you will ignore them and when you are speechless, the way tou try to runaway is by changing the topic. Which is not suit with a person that claimed he has done a 25 years old research.

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2)
All are equal in the eyes of GOD. There is no special chosen people. If the Jews believe so it is their business but the truth is all are equal in the eyes of GOD. Hindus, Jews, Jains, Buddhist, Christians, Sikhs, Muslims, Atheist and including all trible people of all nations are equal in the eyes of GOD. Its's man of race and religion that divided the unity of mankind. So do not put the blame on GOD. HE is laughing at you lots. Now here the verse contradicts by saying and God is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:95) and yet you say Allah test the faithfull. I have exposed the myth of this verse my friend and I believe Al-Baqarah was a liar.

My answer:
No...you are wrong.It is God/Allah right to choose which tribe He wants to be special. He has chosen the Jews and that is why you can see most of the prophets came from the tribe.:

"We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided
Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good:And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations:" (Surah Al-An'aam 6:84~86)

If you don't believe the verse above, kindly open the Holy Bible also which talking about the same thing. And the reason a human and a Jinn is different that others is depending how righteous he/it is:

"To all are degrees (or ranks) according to their deeds: for thy Lord is not
unmindful of anything that they do." (Surah Al-An'am 6:132)

The Holy Bible also explained the same thing!!.

Th verse you quoted, it was not because Allah doesn;t know the wrong-doers, but that was the way He showed Muhammad, which followers obeyed and disobeyed Him.It is you still cannot undertsand the short verse well.Pity, old man!!

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3)
This is another lie to delude Muslims inot believing that Muhammed was right and the Jews were wrong. My dear friend the experience in life and the knowledge I have gained helps me in knowing the truth and not lies which you believe. Your Quran doesn not in any way conviencing nor does it seem to be the word of GOD. And that my friend is the solomen truth.

My answer:
In the Holy Bible, if you read, Jesus repeatedly warn and gave guidance to the Jews, but everytime he did, they receieve him not!!.It is like the nature of Jews, everytime come a prophet, they will reject the prophet and slay some of them. In
fact they can accept Jesus until now!.

He said:

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed `the righteousness' of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20).

They are many other verses in the Holy Bible showing that how Jesus rejected the faith of the Jews.

So, why you blamed Muhammad alone?. Like I said before the Jews were so special, but because of that they FORGOT Allah and claimed that they are Holy to get into heaven.Silliy,old man:@
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4)
Whole lot of things are wrong with Islam. At first you deny karma and now you say Muslims to believe in it. You mind is not fixed my friend. Man is born here for a purpose and when that purpose is fulfilled the soul leaves the body and that truth is only known to us. But you come out with meaningless verses and complictae yourself.

My answer:
I deny Karma?.Like you have explained to me the Karma is almost like "You do good deeds, you will get good deeds from others in future".The different is you only believe it will only happen in the world, whereas Muslims believe it will happen in this world and the hereafter. So, which part of the verse showed I denied it?.Try to change the topic again...Come on la, old man.

"But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?" (Surah Al-'Imran 3:25)

"The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for God bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:212)
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5)
Again asking silly question. When I say spirits are formless and you keep asking in what form. Looks like I'm debating with a child of low IQ. Sorry for that coz it's my mistake as I thought yu to be an adult

My answer:
The reason I asked you the question was, I tried to prove to you that we know the existence of Soul, our knowledges about it is LIMITED.And obviously the verse I have quoted to you is true!:

""They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit
(cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is
communicated to you, (O men!)"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:25)

It is only you tried to be like God.Like you know anything about soul, until you called yourself and expert in it. Shameless old man

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6)
As I have said above thats is what Muslims and Christians believe so but not us. We know the real truth while you live in delusion

My answer:
FOUR BOOKS confirming the same think.Not only Muslims and Christians believe in it, but Jews also. Have you ever wonder why your book never mentioned such thing?.Because your book invalid.And, your book incomplete. You said The Holy Quran doesn't have enogh fact to talk about 21st century, but what about your book?. Does you book mentioned Islamic faith is false?.Does it mentioned worship Allah is false?. See, clearly incomplete!!.Because the scriptures do not have any commentary upon religions that came after it!!.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 4-3-2007 11:07 AM ]

eastrun · Post time 4-3-2007 10:59 AM

7)
This is the most stupidest assumption. It we Hindus who believe in the Pancha Bhootas [the 5 elements] which are WATER, FIRE, WIND, EARTH and ETHER. These elements control the everything which will effect the lives of all human beings. But that is anothe subject that we can debate on if you have the knowledge on it. Looks like its you who cakap bodoh di sini.Faham tak?

My answer:
Aik?. The core topic was about angels and thier roles. And why suddenly you changed the topic into the FIVE ELEMENTS.Hei, old man, I wrote abou these yesterday and you already forgot?.Silly stratey.Ran away and changed the topic!!.

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8)
Can I argue with an ignorant? We are not GOD but GOD is in us stupid. The air we breath in is GOD, the power that generates energy in us is GOD. If you deny that than you are an atheist but pretend to be a believer. I think if all Muslims think like you than I would say MUslims are kafirs

My answer:
I gnored your faith because I got the facts and evidences from my Holy Book.Does your book have any evidences saying that what the Muslims believe in is wrong?.The energy, the wind, the breath, the rain, the sun,the moon..All that are His creations but not Him. Muslim are kafirs?. Barney, all Muslims think just like what I have explained to you.God is God!.You are the kafir.By the way, do you know what is the meaning of kafir?.Nanti kena batang hidung kau sendiri.

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9)
33:50 -"rophet, We have made lawful to you thewives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has givenyou as booty."

Ibn Sa'd's "Tabaqat",gives a clear description of Muhammad having "relations" with atleast one of his slave girls. Muhammadhad sexual relations with Mariyah, his Coptic slave. Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts toMuhammad. Muhammad gave Sirin to HasanThabit, the poet. Ibn Sa'd says thatMuhammad "liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair andpretty." [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's"Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" [Book of the Major Classes), p151]..

My answer:
Heh...read the whole verse first.He didn't sleep with the slaves women.He made them as his wives.Which is 'halal' for him to sleep together with. They are wives, not slaves.25 years of research.It seems like this is the first time you find the verse..

barney50 · Post time 4-3-2007 11:37 AM

Reply #47 eastrun's post
by eastrun:
The core topic was why God gave test to us. And I have explained that
one of the reason, HE WANTS US TO REMEMBER HIM. Another reason, during
Muhammad period, that is the way He showed Muhammad which followers
obeyed and disobeyed,and there are many other reasons why Allah gave
the test. He is God and of course He is qualified to give anything like
test/rewards and punishment you.You beileve in the Al-Mighty.But I
don't think so, because the way you talked/wrote, it was like you are
tring to be as same as level as Him.

Copy the Code

eastrun, you do not seem to understand why religions were created. Religion is a path to understand the ceator and educate man to live in a rightious path. It is not an instituion for accusation nor meet out punishment for wrong doers. Basicaly punishments for wrong doers were derived from tradion and culture before legislation of modern method. But Islam was mad to rule over people which is based on politics anot not religion. Mohammed used religion as a camuflage to launch his political career. Prophets are not politicians but educators of spiritualism and guide to the kingdom of GOD but as far as Mohammed is concern he is a politician who deceived his people with religion and prophethood. That is my perception of Mohammed and Islam. GOD the All KNower knows all and need not require to test man. It's mortal like us who would test the loyalty of fellow men. Man would test his wife if she is loyal to him, test his kinship if they are on his side and test a friend if the fried is loyal to him but GOD is GOD the All Knower who has no ned ofr that. If GOD needs to test the faith of man than he becomes a weak god and I think Allah is a weak God in my understanding.

by eastrun:
Aand suddenly now, you changed the topic again.Suddenly you talked
about Muslims are killing and causing war and etc. Which, obviously
faraway from the core topic.AND ABOUT THE KILLING, I have told and
explained that to you.Don't want to waste my time repeating same
topic.You are old, and you forgot the explanations already,perhaps.
I don't care about the ATHEIST.It is thier right to do what they think
it is the best for them.Since they are atheists, please don't put them
into the religion topic because they are excluded.They have no faith
and not beileve in the Almighty God.I wonder, why you always use
persons which have no faith in any religions in this discussion.

Copy the Code

My reference to them is because I have to make you understand that mankind can live without Islam. Man had reached the moon without Islam, man had discovered medicine for disease without Islam and without Islam man has reached the peak of civilazation. So, stop blabbring about Islam this and Islam that. It is not the only religion for the world but one of the religion and it is choice of man to which he wish to subscribe. And that my friend is a fundamental right of human beings.

by eastrun:
You need to be educated, but I don't know how, because no matter how
brief the explanation is, with true evidences, still you will ignore
them and when you are speechless, the way tou try to runaway is by
changing the topic. Which is not suit with a person that claimed he has
done a 25 years old research.

Copy the Code

I do not run away from any debate but when I see children debating with adults is when I decide to keep mum. And once again facing a childlike character who does not seem to understand the core of religion but trying to act like an expert.

by eastrun:
No...you are wrong.It is God/Allah right to choose which tribe He wants
to be special. He has chosen the Jews and that is why you can see most
of the prophets came from the tribe.:
"We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided
Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and
Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good:And Zakariya and John, and
Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:And Isma'il and
Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the
nations:" (Surah Al-An'aam 6:84~86)
If you don't believe the verse above, kindly open the Holy Bible also
which talking about the same thing. And the reason a human and a Jinn
is different that others is depending how righteous he/it is:
"To all are degrees (or ranks) according to their deeds: for thy Lord is not
unmindful of anything that they do." (Surah Al-An'am 6:132)
The Holy Bible also explained the same thing!!.
Th verse you quoted, it was not because Allah doesn;t know the
wrong-doers, but that was the way He showed Muhammad, which followers
obeyed and disobeyed Him.It is you still cannot undertsand the short
verse well.Pity, old man!!

Copy the Code

The problem here is you are a tuned up robot and would speak as told. But not me ads I'm free to discuss and debate with my religious scholars. While you cannot becuase you have been thought not to question the act of your prophet but I can becuase my religion does not ristrict me. That is how one can gain knowledge othwise become a zombie like you. The OT my friiend is a epic written by Jews for the Jews. Of course whatever is written in it were written by wise men of the period. Mohammed had nothing to go by except for the OT and the NT plus some traditionl ways of the Arab community. GOD does not chose any particular race as HIS special people nor would HE favour a particular race. This is all the work of selected wise men of the period and I disagree with such statements. If GOD is bias and impartial than HE is not GOD but somethin else and I wonder whne it comes to Islam and Judaism.

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3)
This is another lie to delude Muslims inot believing that Muhammed wasright and the Jews were wrong. My dear friend the experience in lifeand the knowledge I have gained helps me in knowing the truth and notlies which you believe. Your Quran doesn not in any way conviencing nordoes it seem to be the word of GOD. And that my friend is the solomentruth.

My answer:
In the Holy Bible, if you read, Jesus repeatedly warn and gave guidanceto the Jews, but everytime he did, they receieve him not!!.It is likethe nature of Jews, everytime come a prophet, they will reject theprophet and slay some of them. In
fact they can accept Jesus until now!.

He said:

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed `therighteousness' of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enterinto the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20).

They are many other verses in the Holy Bible showing that how Jesus rejected the faith of the Jews.

So, why you blemed Muhammad alone?. Like I said before the Jews were sospecial, but because of that the FORGOT Allah and claimed that they areHoly to get into heaven.Silliy,old man:@
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4)
Whole lot of things are wrong with Islam. At first you deny karma andnow you say Muslims to believe in it. You mind is not fixed my friend.Man is born here for a purpose and when that purpose is fulfilled thesoul leaves the body and that truth is only known to us. But you comeout with meaningless verses and complictae yourself.

My answer:
I deny Karma?.Like you have explained to me the Karma is almost like"You do good deeds, you will get good deeds from others in future".Thedifferent is you only believe it will only happen in the world, whereasMuslims believe it will happen in this world and the hereafter. So,which part of the verse showed I denied it?.Try to change the topicagain...Come on la, old man.
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5)
Again asking silly question. When I say spirits are formless and youkeep asking in what form. Looks like I'm debating with a child of lowIQ. Sorry for that coz it's my mistake as I thought yu to be an adult

My answer:
The reason I asked you the question was, I tried to prove to you thatwe know the existence of Soul, our knowledges about it is LIMITED.Andobviously the verse I have quoted to you is true!:

""They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit
(cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is
communicated to you, (O men!)"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:25)

It is only you tried to be like God.Like you know anything about soul,until you called yourself and expert in it. Shameless old man

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6)
As I have said above thats is what Muslims and Christians believe sobut not us. We know the real truth while you live in delusion

My answer:
FOUR BOOKS confirming the same think.Not only Muslims and Christiansbelieve in it, but Jews also. Have you ever wonder why your book nevermentioned such thing?.Because your book invalid.And, your bookincomplete. You said The Holy Quran doesn't have enogh fact to talkabout 21st century, but what about your book?. Does you book mentionedIslamic faith is false?.Does it mentioned worship Allah is false?. See,clearly incomplete!!.Because the scriptures do not have any commentaryupon religions that came after it!!.

barney50 · Post time 4-3-2007 12:19 PM

Sambungan

by eastrun:
Aik?. The core topic was about angels and thier roles. And why suddenly
you changed the topic into the FIVE ELEMENTS.Hei, old man, I wrote abou
these yesterday and you already forgot?.Silly stratey.Ran away and
changed the topic!!.

Copy the Code

You said in Islam they are angels while I want to make youunderstand we Hindus call it Pancha Boothas. Why? Is it difficult toswallow that we knew about it long before Islam?

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by eastrun:
I gnored your faith because I got the facts and evidences from my Holy
Book.Does your book have any evidences saying that what the Muslims
believe in is wrong?.The energy, the wind, the breath, the rain, the
sun,the moon..All that are His creations but not Him. Muslim are
kafirs?. Barney, all Muslims think just like what I have explained to
you.God is God!.You are the kafir.By the way, do you know what is the
meaning of kafir?.Nanti kena batang hidung kau sendiri.

Copy the Code

No one is asking you to accept my faith. Our religion has more than what your Quran has for mankind.

In Islam,aderogatory designation of the infidel, the unbeliever ormisbeliever.The word "kafir" has changed its actual meaning severaltimes, from"obliterating, covering" to "ungrateful [to God]".
Depending on definition, a kafir can by any non-Muslim, or anyone not belonging to the Ahl al-Kitab (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sabaeans or, possibly, Zoroastrian). In the latter case, anyone from the Buddhists, Hindus to Atheists are kafir.

The Kalas
We shall now have a quick look at thedifferent sciences or Kalas known to have existed, those that comeunder the category of Vedas.

The first that calls for mention is the encyclopaedic Sastra which goesby the name of Akshara-laksha. The authorship of this science isattributed to Sage Valmiki. All kinds(325 to be exact) ofmathematics including modern geometry, algebra, trigonometry, physicsorapplied mathematics; minerology, hydels; the method of measuring air,heat and evenelectricity; geography etc., are said to have beentreated. This work comprehends earlier discoveries by SageKashyapa, Ganapati, Soorya, Brihaspati, Jaimini, Hanuman and othersThis work consists of 50 chapters. Thefirst half deals with mathematics and the secondhalf is about theShaktis that make up the world.Thenext science of importance is Sabda Sastra. One Kandika Rishi wrotethis. It dealswith sounds, echoes of moving and non-moving objects increation. It also deals in fivechapters with capturing or mechanicallyreproducing sounds, measuring their pitch,velocity, etc.
Sage Sakatayana is the author ofLakshana Sastra, or the science of determining the sexin animate andinanimate creation. Babhru Muni has written about Kanya-Lakshana inwhich32 marks are indicated for chastity etc. Sage Garga has written onSakuna Sastra, thedetermination of good and bad effects from the soundsof birds, words of human beings etc.(in other words, omens).

Shilpa Sastra is said to have been written by Sage Kashyapa andit consists of 22chapters. 307 varieties of Shilpas including 11 typesof constructions like temples,palaces, halls etc., are detailed.Earlier writers on this subject are Viswakarma, Maya,Maruti,Chayapurasha, etc., whose thoughts have been incorporated in the above.
Supa-Sastra deals with the science ofcooking. One Sukesa is the first author of thisscience. 108 varietiesof preparations, from condiments and pickles to sweetmeats,cakes,puddings, and 3032 kinds of dishes meant for people living indifferent parts of the worldare mentioned.

Sage Rishyasringa is credited with writing a comprehensivetreatise on the sciencecalled Malinee Sastra which consists of flowerarrangements, making garlands, bouquets,hair-do抯 in various styles forwomen, writing love messages on flower petals toconvey to beloveds incodes. This work consists of 16 chapters.

The science of Kala or Time was written by Lord Karttikeya. Itsdivision into definiteperiods, their classification into auspicious andinauspicious moments, the deities thatpreside over each are dealt within this work.
Samudra Raja, or the Lord of the Ocean isthe original author of Samudrika Sastra. Henoted down the auspiciousmarks on the body of Lord Vishnu while the latter was restingonAadisesha in the ocean. This science was later developed by

Sages like Narada, Varaha and Mandavya and Lord Kartikeya. Palmistry belongs to this sastra.
Aswini Kumaras are credited with writingthe science of Dhatuvada which, in 7 chapterstreats of natural as wellas artificial Dhatus or primary substances, their combinationsandtransmutations. Alchemy or converting copper into gold etc. is dealtwith in thiswork.

The science of poisons or Visha Sastra is said to have beenexhaustively written aboutby Aswini Kumaras. This treats of 32 kinds ofpoisons, their properties, theirpreparations, effects and antidotes.
Bhima is credited with having composedthe science of fine arts called ChitrakarmaSastra. It consists of 12chapters and expounds nearly 200 kinds of drawings. There is asectionin which students are taught to recreate the figure of a person afterseeing asingle hair or nail or a bone of that person. One Malla is said to have composed a comprehensive work on

Malla Sastra which dealswith 82 kinds of gymnastics and sportsnecessary for preservation of health and athleticactivities and 24kinds of infantry warfare where hand to hand combat is involved.Thiswork consists of 3 parts.
The revered Valakhilyas are credited withwriting the science on Parakaya Praveshai.e., entering into one bodyfrom another body, and it teaches 32 kinds of Yogas and theeight-foldSiddhis (super-human capabilities), Anima, Mahima etc.
Agnivarma has written exhaustivelyon the science of horses, their auspiciousmarks, their physiology,breeding, training etc. Similarly, one Kumaraswamy haswrittenexhaustively on Gaja Sastra (about elephants). He has given 16methods to test variousmarks on the bodies of elephants.

Sage Vatsyayana has composed a work on Ratna Pariksha or testingof gems (preciousstones). His analysis shows 24 characteristics of gemsor precious stones, natural andartificial ones; their forms, weightsetc are discussed and classified into categories. 32methods of testingthem for genuineness are also described.
Veerabahu, the lieutenant of LordSubramanya, is the author of a work on Mahendrajalaor the science ofmagic. It teaches how illusions, like walking on the water, ridinginthe air etc., are made.
Sage Vyasa is said to have composed awork on Artha Sastra consisting of threechapters, in which he teaches82 ways of earning money, even while leading a righteouslife.

Sage Agastyais credited with the composing of Shakti Tantraconsisting of eightchapters in which Mulaprakriti, Maya etc., and 64kinds of external Shaktis of bodies likethose of the Sun, Moon and Air,Fire etc., are explained and their particular applicationsare alsogiven. Atomic fission or nuclear science appears to form part of thisscience.
Sage Matanga is credited with composing ascience called Soudamini Kala by which allphenomena could be attractedthrough shadows and even ideas. Also taught is the scienceofphotographing interiors of mountains, earth etc.

Authorship of the science which treats of the clouds, is attributed toSage Atri. This work deals with 12 kinds of clouds, theircharacteristics, 12 kinds of rains, 64 kinds oflightnings, 32 varietiesof thunderbolts etc.
In a work on Yantras by Bharadwaja, heexplains about 339 types of vehicles useful intravelling on land, 783kinds of boats and ships to be used on water and 101 varietiesofairships, by use of the Mantra, Tantra, and artificial means andthose used by semi-divinebeings like Gandharvas etc., are alsoexplained.

Now tell me why do I need the Quran when we have the VEDAS which have more than what mankind needs to survive in this planet.

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[ Last edited by barney50 at 4-3-2007 12:30 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 5-3-2007 09:50 PM

1)
eastrun, you do not seem to understand why religions were created. Religion is a path to understand the ceator and educate man to live in a rightious path. It is not an instituion for accusation nor meet out punishment for wrong doers. Basicaly punishments for wrong doers were derived from tradion and culture before legislation of modern method. But Islam was mad to rule over people which is based on politics anot not religion. Mohammed used religion as a camuflage to launch his political career. Prophets are not politicians but educators of spiritualism and guide to the kingdom of GOD but as far as Mohammed is concern he is a politician who deceived his people with religion and prophethood. That is my perception of Mohammed and Islam. GOD the All KNower knows all and need not require to test man. It's mortal like us who would test the loyalty of fellow men. Man would test his wife if she is loyal to him, test his kinship if they are on his side and test a friend if the fried is loyal to him but GOD is GOD the All Knower who has no ned ofr that. If GOD needs to test the faith of man than he becomes a weak god and I think Allah is a weak God in my understanding.

My answer:
It is only you said that Muhammad is the politican.Whereas Muhammad everytime those kafirs try to stop his dakwah by offering great position in the nation, he refused to accept the position.Then, how can he be a politican.I have told you the reason Allah give the test.And I really wonder after almost ten times I repeated the same thing, you are still not able to understand.Then, ALLAH is true:

"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:6)

And I have to tell you the punishments for wrong doers not only come during Muhammad's period, but it happened during the appearance of Moses.Where Moses punished a Jew for 'langgar' the law of Sabbath Day.Read the Holy Bible, as well as my beloved scripture, Quran.

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2)
My reference to them is because I have to make you understand that mankind can live without Islam. Man had reached the moon without Islam, man had discovered medicine for disease without Islam and without Islam man has reached the peak of civilazation. So, stop blabbring about Islam this and Islam that. It is not the only religion for the world but one of the religion and it is choice of man to which he wish to subscribe. And that my friend is a fundamental right of human beings.

My answer:

After 53 years you live in this world, you still don't know what is atheist?.Atheist..they can live without ANY RELIGION not only Islam.They don't even want to believe the existence of God.That's why I laughed when you put the atheist as reference of your evidences.So, don't blame Islam for what have happened to them. Even without the existence of Hindusm, people also can do what you have mentioned above.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
I do not run away from any debate but when I see children debating with adults is when I decide to keep mum. And once again facing a childlike character who does not seem to understand the core of religion but trying to act like an expert.

My answer:
I didn't called myself an expert.But you did...you said that you are an expert in soul.A person that trying to be God, and at last gain nothing!:

"Those who dispute about the signs of Allah without any authority bestowed on them,- there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of) greatness, which they shall never attain to: seek refuge, then, in Allah. It is He Who hears and sees (all things)."(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:56)

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4)
The problem here is you are a tuned up robot and would speak as told. But not me ads I'm free to discuss and debate with my religious scholars. While you cannot becuase you have been thought not to question the act of your prophet but I can becuase my religion does not ristrict me. That is how one can gain knowledge othwise become a zombie like you. The OT my friiend is a epic written by Jews for the Jews. Of course whatever is written in it were written by wise men of the period. Mohammed had nothing to go by except for the OT and the NT plus some traditionl ways of the Arab community. GOD does not chose any particular race as HIS special people nor would HE favour a particular race. This is all the work of selected wise men of the period and I disagree with such statements. If GOD is bias and impartial than HE is not GOD but somethin else and I wonder whne it comes to Islam and Judaism.

My answer:
He is not God He is bias?.Who are you to question His choice.You just made an assumption that Muhammad add this add that.But, why don't you blame the same thing on Moses, on David, on Jesus?.By the way, the why are you changing the topic once again?.Why suddenly changed to the existence of 'wise men', the zombie?.The topic was what/why God chosen certain people.

You gain knowledge when you are not acting like a zombie.Ye ke?. What I have seen, you gain nothing.The worst is you are the zombie of cut and paste.Konon buat kajian 25 tahun

Even to give His revelations also, God is making choices.If not,all of us received the revelations and all of us can be called prophets and rishis!.And now you said that God cannot making choice.Bodoh!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
You said in Islam they are angels while I want to make youunderstand we Hindus call it Pancha Boothas. Why? Is it difficult toswallow that we knew about it long before Islam

My answer:

I don't care whether you believe it long before Islam.No matter how long you know the existence of the creation, but still you are not able to really know what is the exact role, the exact charactheristic of the creation.Only just a little.That's thier existence.Clear?.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
Now tell me why do I need the Quran when we have the VEDAS which have more than what mankind needs to survive in this planet.

My answers:

When I read the articles above, my believe in the Holy Quran becomes stronger.Because, the articles above proved that about hundred thousands ago, God already sent down many prophets that brought down part of His knowledge.Which Quran confirmed them:

"We did aforetime send apostles before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah. but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods."
(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:78)

So, I am no worry and I am not suprised about that.Because with Allah's will, anything can happened.

I am not forcing you to accept my revelation,But THE CORE TOPIC WAS..Show me verses in the VEDAS,which you claimed very special, saying that worship Allah is wrong, Muhammad is the false prophet.Show to me, if you CAN

[ Last edited by eastrun at 5-3-2007 09:56 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 6-3-2007 11:06 AM

Reply #51 eastrun's post

It is only you said that Muhammad is the politican.Whereas Muhammad everytime those kafirs try to stop his dakwah by offering great position in the nation, he refused to accept the position.Then, how can he be a politican.I have told you the reason Allah give the test.And I really wonder after almost ten times I repeated the same thing, you are still not able to understand.Then, ALLAH is true:
"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:6)
And I have to tell you the punishments for wrong doers not only come during Muhammad's period, but it happened during the appearance of Moses.Where Moses punished a Jew for 'langgar' the law of Sabbath Day.Read the Holy Bible, as well as my beloved scripture, Quran.

Copy the Code

eastrun, Mohammed was a self made prophet who used religion as a base for his political career. He became the ruler of Mecca upon the surrender of the Meccans to his army. Moses did not become the ruler of any kingdom but only saved the Isrealis from bondage as instructed by GOD.

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After 53 years you live in this world, you still don't know what is atheist?.Atheist..they can live without ANY RELIGION not only Islam.They don't even want to believe the existence of God.That's why I laughed when you put the atheist as reference of your evidences.So, don't blame Islam for what have happened to them. Even without the existence of Hindusm, people also can do what you have mentioned above.

Copy the Code

Yes, that is right, Without any religion the Athiest can live and survive like any and that is a good example why I say Islam is not the only relgion for the world but many other paths too. There is no one true religion but Musims are delued into believeing so.
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I didn't called myself an expert.But you did...you said that you are an expert in soul.A person that trying to be God, and at last gain nothing!:
"Those who dispute about the signs of Allah without any authority bestowed on them,- there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of) greatness, which they shall never attain to: seek refuge, then, in Allah. It is He Who hears and sees (all things)."(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:56)

Copy the Code

You behave like one and your arrogance is a clear sign of it. What authority? Did Mohammed get that authority and who is the wittness to it? Was there a wittness when the authority was given to Mohammed. Present the wittness please otherwsie it's self proclaimed.

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code]
He is not God He is bias?.Who are you to question His choice.You just made an assumption that Muhammad add this add that.But, why don't you blame the same thing on Moses, on David, on Jesus?.By the way, the why are you changing the topic once again?.Why suddenly changed to the existence of 'wise men', the zombie?.The topic was what/why God chosen certain people.[/code]

I repeat there are no chosen people. Whoever claimed so is their claim and not accepted by all races nor wee Arabs the chosen ones. In the eyes of GOD all are equal and their deeds wil speak for theie well being. Learn to understand that.

You gain knowledge when you are not acting like a zombie.Ye ke?. What I have seen, you gain nothing.The worst is you are the zombie of cut and paste.Konon buat kajian 25 tahun

Copy the Code

The cut and paste is by most forumers including you. Its one way of showing you what others think of your religion. I gave you points and yet you refuse to accept shows you low IQ.

Even to give His revelations also, God is making choices.If not,all of us received the revelations and all of us can be called prophets and rishis!.And now you said that God cannot making choice.Bodoh!

Copy the Code

Well, from you reply I can understand how much you know about religious philosophy. God makes HIS choice of selecting man to convey HIS message to maknind but not choice on whcih race is his favoured. If GOD maks favourtism than HE cannot be GOD but the DEVIL. Jews themself proclaimed that they were the chosen people but GOD did no say so. If it was written so in the OT then it must be the work of the Jewish elders. It's just like Mohammed who said GOD told him to do this and that. You must be the greatest FOOL on earth to accept such.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't care whether you believe it long before Islam.No matter how long you know the existence of the creation, but still you are not able to really know what is the exact role, the exact charactheristic of the creation.Only just a little.That's thier existence.Clear?.

Copy the Code

Clear what? That you have been deluded to believe so? It's not the most hardest thing to understand but for peole luike you it is because Islam has ristricted you from knowing the truth. Is that clear now?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I read the articles above, my believe in the Holy Quran becomes stronger.Because, the articles above proved that about hundred thousands ago, God already sent down many prophets that brought down part of His knowledge.Which Quran confirmed them:
"We did aforetime send apostles before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah. but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods."
(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:78)
So, I am no worry and I am not suprised about that.Because with Allah's will, anything can happened.
I am not forcing you to accept my revelation,But THE CORE TOPIC WAS..Show me verses in the VEDAS,which you claimed very special, saying that worship Allah is wrong, Muhammad is the false prophet.Show to me, if you CAN

Copy the Code

No where in my religion has mentioned the word Allah nor the coming of a prophet named Mohammed. Now that itself will prove that whatever Mohammed said or did does not relate to my religion. In fact he was much against any other form of religion but his own show this man was out to conquere the world with his religion. Thank GOD his dream ended with his death. Religion is freedom of choice and not by force. Mohammed did it by force and the resut is what we are seeing today where Muslims are fighting among themselves and Muslims killing Muslims.

eastrun · Post time 6-3-2007 08:14 PM

1)
eastrun, Mohammed was a self made prophet who used religion as a base for his political career. He became the ruler of Mecca upon the surrender of the Meccans to his army. Moses did not become the ruler of any kingdom but only saved the Isrealis from bondage as instructed by GOD.

My answer:
Barney, before you claim something, you must have the evidence. Don't simply talk. Show me a verse in the Holy Quran, which Muhammad became the leader/Politican.If possible, show it from the previous scriptures.That if you can.The reason I compared with Moses was as prove to you that the law of punishments existed before Muhammad and not Muhammad himself created ithem.So, don't simply accused Muhammad this and that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)
Yes, that is right, Without any religion the Athiest can live andsurvive like any and that is a good example why I say Islam is not theonly relgion for the world but many other paths too. There is no one true religion but Musims are delued into believeing so.

My answer:

Then, as a Hindu, you never claimed you religion is the truth one?.Thenwhat for you are really proud with Hindusm?.My God, obviously you are aperson that following a religion and yet not believing what you havefollowed.And then, you claimed you are an expert...expert in soul andetc.?.Ask other follower from other religion.For sure they will say what they have believe is true.Only you claimed that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)You behave like one and your arrogance is a clear sign of it. Whatauthority? Did Mohammed get that authority and who is the wittness toit? Was there a wittness when the authority was given to Mohammed.Present the wittness please otherwsie it's self proclaimed.

My answer:
The verse above is for people like YOU.Allah never sent down authority toyour rishis to say that Allah is wrong, Islam is wrong, Muhammad iswrong and The Holy Quran is wrong.But, why you claimed that Muhammad isnot a prophet, Allah is not God and Quran is not Allah's scripture.You attacked the religion blindly, and yet your scriptures never talked about that (no prove or supportive verses from your scripture)

In fact, your scriptures also never asked you to asked Allah's hidden knowledge,right?.Then, why you asked. Allah was right:

"...there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of) greatness,which they shall never attain to: seek refuge, then, in Allah...."(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:56)

THAT IS YOU!!.

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4)
I repeat there are no chosen people. Whoever claimed so is their claimand not accepted by all races nor wee Arabs the chosen ones. In theeyes of GOD all are equal and their deeds wil speak for theie wellbeing. Learn to understand that.

My answer:
If God made no choice, then why He has chosen special persons to receive His revelations?.It is up to Him to choose who He wants to.He has chosen the Jews as a special group of people.That is why he sent many prophets from them.He has chosen some people to be rich and some people to be poor.Some people to get into heaven and some people get into hell (according to the good deeds ones did)..So, He has no problem for that.Just think...why don't you become the right person to receive His revelations...of course BECAUSE HE HAS MADE A CHOICE TO GIVE THEM TO OTHER SUITABLE PERSON...

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5)The cut and paste is by most forumers including you. Its one way ofshowing you what others think of your religion. I gave you points andyet you refuse to accept shows you low IQ.

My answer:
Everytime you gave us point...I asked you to compare with the Holy Quran first..because the articles you sent mostly practising the verse twisting method.And proven they twist the meaning of the verses.YOU gave weighless points.You claimed...but with no evidences, either fromyour scriptures, or from mine, or from the previous scriptures.So, how people want to believe.A high IQ person will make a research firstbefore dispersing the news, so that. later tak kena batang hidung sendiri.Faham?

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6)
Well, from you reply I can understand how much you know about religiousphilosophy. God makes HIS choice of selecting man to convey HIS messageto maknind but not choice on whcih race is his favoured. If GOD maksfavourtism than HE cannot be GOD but the DEVIL. Jews themselfproclaimed that they were the chosen people but GOD did no say so. Ifit was written so in the OT then it must be the work of the Jewishelders. It's just like Mohammed who said GOD told him to do this andthat. You must be the greatest FOOL on earth to accept such.

My answer:
My friend,you misunderstood. God has chosen a prophet from each 'umat':

" Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a
warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past)." (Surah Faathir 35:24).

But, the Jews was chosen to be special based on how many prophets came from them.That's what I meant, He choose special 'umat'.

God did said that they are the chosen 'umat'.Chosen for what...chosen to become a 'umat' that there will many prophets raised from them.Any problem with that?.

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7)
No where in my religion has mentioned the word Allah nor the coming ofa prophet named Mohammed. Now that itself will prove that whateverMohammed said or did does not relate to my religion. In fact he wasmuch against any other form of religion but his own show this man wasout to conquere the world with his religion. Thank GOD his dream endedwith his death. Religion is freedom of choice and not by force.Mohammed did it by force and the resut is what we are seeing todaywhere Muslims are fighting among themselves and Muslims killing Muslims.

My answer:

Changed the topic again.Read the previous post...what was thetopic?.Accused Islam this and that from you is normal.But whatever yousay, Islam is growing, though and won't stop:

"Fain would they extinguish Allah.s light with their mouths, but Allahwill not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though theUnbelievers may detest (it).It is He Who hath sent His Messenger withguidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion,even though the Pagans may detest (it)"
(Surah At-Taubah 9:32~33)

See you soon!!!. Hehehehe

[ Last edited by eastrun at 6-3-2007 08:59 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 6-3-2007 08:48 PM

READ THE HOLY QURAN. MY FRIEND...

[ Last edited by eastrun at 6-3-2007 08:58 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 7-3-2007 07:48 AM

Reply #53 eastrun's post

Barney, before you claim something, you must have the evidence. Don't
simply talk. Show me a verse in the Holy Quran, which Muhammad became
the leader/Politican.If possible, show it from the previous
scriptures.That if you can.The reason I compared with Moses was as
prove to you that the law of punishments existed before Muhammad and
not Muhammad himself created ithem.So, don't simply accused Muhammad
this and that.

Copy the Code

Do you deny Mohammed was not a political leader and a warrior leading his soldiers into battles? Laws of Moses were only assimilated into the syariah but most important the traditional laws too were added in order to satisfy the Bedouins of Arabia. It is not an accusation but facts of Mohammed's life as a leader of the Ummah. May be you lack in clear knowledge of your own prophet's life and deed. Don't blame me blame the Islamic scholars who wrote about him.

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Then, as a Hindu, you never claimed you religion is the truth
one?.Thenwhat for you are really proud with Hindusm?.My God, obviously
you are aperson that following a religion and yet not believing what
you havefollowed.And then, you claimed you are an expert...expert in
soul andetc.?.Ask other follower from other religion.For sure they will
say what they have believe is true.Only you claimed that.

Copy the Code

Yes, my religion as truth too but I do not go around saying mine is the only true religion of GOD. We Hindus believe all paths lead to the one same GOD we call by many names. Is that hard for you to comprehend or were you made to be ignorant of such facts?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The verse above is for people like YOU.Allah never sent down authority
toyour rishis to say that Allah is wrong, Islam is wrong, Muhammad
iswrong and The Holy Quran is wrong.But, why you claimed that Muhammad
isnot a prophet, Allah is not God and Quran is not Allah's
scripture.You attacked the religion blindly, and yet your scriptures
never talked about that (no prove or supportive verses from your
scripture)
In fact, your scriptures also never asked you to asked Allah's hidden knowledge,right?.Then, why you asked. Allah was right:
"...there is nothing in their breasts but (the quest of)
greatness,which they shall never attain to: seek refuge, then, in
Allah...."(Surah Al-Mu'min 40:56)

Copy the Code

You have not answered my question. Who wittnessed the authorization given to Mohammed by Allah or GOD? Our Rishis did not proclaim nor did they went on war path to convert others into their belief. They presented what they received to the students and passed on to others. Unlike your Quran our scriptures do not mention name of founders. In Quran Mohammed's name is mentioned. It is alos written as though GOD is directly speaking to Mohammed. All these are work of poets ordered by the first caliph who ordered such writting. You fail to explore that part but instead just argue without and research.

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If God made no choice, then why He has chosen special persons to
receive His revelations?.It is up to Him to choose who He wants to.He
has chosen the Jews as a special group of people.That is why he sent
many prophets from them.He has chosen some people to be rich and some
people to be poor.Some people to get into heaven and some people get
into hell (according to the good deeds ones did)..So, He has no problem
for that.Just think...why don't you become the right person to receive
His revelations...of course BECAUSE HE HAS MADE A CHOICE TO GIVE THEM
TO OTHER SUITABLE PERSON...

Copy the Code

So, what you mean is GOD chose Jews to present Judaism and Mohammed to present Islam? Well, then you must agree that each race has a different religious path but by the same creator. If that musch you could understand than there should be no problem as Muslims need not worry about other belif as all beclong to GOD.

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Everytime you gave us point...I asked you to compare with the Holy
Quran first..because the articles you sent mostly practising the verse
twisting method.And proven they twist the meaning of the verses.YOU
gave weighless points.You claimed...but with no evidences, either
fromyour scriptures, or from mine, or from the previous scriptures.So,
how people want to believe.A high IQ person will make a research
firstbefore dispersing the news, so that. later tak kena batang hidung
sendiri.Faham?

Copy the Code

No they do not twist but present logic. Do you understand what is ligic or are you ignorant of the existence of such word? But it's people like you who kena batang hidung sendiri because your statement is contradictory.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My friend,you misunderstood. God has chosen a prophet from each 'umat':
" Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a
warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past)." (Surah Faathir 35:24).
But, the Jews was chosen to be special based on how many prophets came from them.That's what I meant, He choose special 'umat'.
God did said that they are the chosen 'umat'.Chosen for what...chosen
to become a 'umat' that there will many prophets raised from them.Any
problem with that?.

Copy the Code

Yes, GOD would keep on sending from time to time in order to teach the people of changes and to leave age old messages that may not be adaptabel to present state of affairs of world. And so Mohammed cannot be the last prophet because many others would come and the new generation of people would see them in the future.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Changed the topic again.Read the previous post...what was
thetopic?.Accused Islam this and that from you is normal.But whatever
yousay, Islam is growing, though and won't stop:
"Fain would they extinguish Allah.s light with their mouths,
but Allahwill not allow but that His light should be perfected, even
though theUnbelievers may detest (it).It is He Who hath sent His
Messenger withguidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over
all religion,even though the Pagans may detest (it)"
(Surah At-Taubah 9:32~33)
See you soon!!!. Hehehehe

Copy the Code

Sorry me friend I don change subject and my reply is always related to the issue discussed here. It's you who need more knowledge in your religion if you want to debate otherwise just withdraw and hybernate.

Show all posts · Post time 7-3-2007 06:36 PM

I don't think Barney will ever change.

He's been stuck against Islam, and never seen anything else from him hardly.

Barney, out of curiosity what is your religion?

eastrun · Post time 7-3-2007 10:31 PM

1)
Do you deny Mohammed was not a political leader and a warrior leading his soldiers into battles? Laws of Moses were only assimilated into the syariah but most important the traditional laws too were added in order to satisfy the Bedouins of Arabia. It is not an accusation but facts of Mohammed's life as a leader of the Ummah. May be you lack in clear knowledge of your own prophet's life and deed. Don't blame me blame the Islamic scholars who wrote about him.

My answer:

I denied him as a politician because nowhere in the Holy Quran stated about that.Furthermore in the Hadith and in the Holy Quran, he never said that will stop dakwah just because he wanted to be a national leader.But he does a leader for the battles.And he is not the person who created the law of punishments as you claimed.Like I told you in previous post, the laws existed about 1900 years before him (during Moses period).

EVERY prophet sent to a ummah is a leader of the ummah, BUT they are not a POLITICIAN as you claimed.

. I am very clear with my prophets.They are all holy persons and followed what God has instructed them..including those Rishis.

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2)
Yes, my religion as truth too but I do not go around saying mine is the only true religion of GOD. We Hindus believe all paths lead to the one same GOD we call by many names. Is that hard for you to comprehend or were you made to be ignorant of such facts?

My answer:
If you claimed that your religion is truth, then why you said that the atheist can live without any religion?.It sounds that you yourself not really confident with your own religion.I believe my religion is the true one.Even Quran itself claimed that this situation (different faith among humans in the world) is normal:

"And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your
Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time."(Surah Al-Mu'minun 23:52~54)

And only Quran made this commentary.Which meant Quran (by Allah permission) tried to tell us, we all believe in one God, the prophets brought same messages, but the people mocked them and changed the way, and Islam came to re-union the law.That is why, after that no Scriptures came after Quran to re-claim the same thing.

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3)
You have not answered my question. Who wittnessed the authorization given to Mohammed by Allah or GOD? Our Rishis did not proclaim nor did they went on war path to convert others into their belief. They presented what they received to the students and passed on to others. Unlike your Quran our scriptures do not mention name of founders. In Quran Mohammed's name is mentioned. It is alos written as though GOD is directly speaking to Mohammed. All these are work of poets ordered by the first caliph who ordered such writting. You fail to explore that part but instead just argue without and research.

My answer:
I counter ask you.When your Rishis never proclaimed about the authorization of your scriptures, then why do you still have faith in them?.Because, you believe the scriptures were from God.And before this I challenged you this:

"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time
to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your(doubts) are true."
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23)

Until now, you yourself not able to accept the challenge.Then, how can you say the scripture was not from God?.Furthermore, your scriptures also never claimed like what you have claimed.Are you against your own scriptures?.

Muhammd also presented what he received to the others and his disciples wrote down and memorized the verses he read.Because that is the role of the prophets.I have no doubt bout that if your rishis did the same thing.And of course Allah was the witness of the authorization.

I don't care whether your Rishis went to the war and convert the enemies or not, but Islam also never practised that before.See this:

"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he
may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (Surah At-Taubah 9:6)

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him
who will, reject (it)......"(Surah Al Kahfi 18:29).

Do the verses above talk about forcing?.

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4)
So, what you mean is GOD chose Jews to present Judaism and Mohammed to present Islam? Well, then you must agree that each race has a different religious path but by the same creator. If that musch you could understand than there should be no problem as Muslims need not worry about other belif as all beclong to GOD.

My answer;

Yes!, but the laws that brought by the prophets are same.I repeat the verse above:

"And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your
Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time."(Surah Al-Mu'minum 23:52~54)

The laws are same, then the ummah mocked them, then God sent another prophet,to repair and re-confirm and re-add the previous laws.Until the last prophet Muhammad.If you read in the Holy Quran, it re-comment, re-confirm and re-pair the previous laws.Islam is to re-union the actual messages.After Muhammad, proven that there is no prophet after him.

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5)
No they do not twist but present logic. Do you understand what is ligic or are you ignorant of the existence of such word? But it's people like you who kena batang hidung sendiri because your statement is contradictory.

My answer:
They twisted the meaning of the Words.They took small part of the verses and then they changed the meaning to make it suitable with what they are thinking.Even though if you read the verses clearly, you will find out that the verses are not like what they have claimed.I am not contradict with my statement, But I give my explanations, with helps and evidences from Allah. Alhamdulillah!!
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6)
Yes, GOD would keep on sending from time to time in order to teach the people of changes and to leave age old messages that may not be adaptabel to present state of affairs of world. And so Mohammed cannot be the last prophet because many others would come and the new generation of people would see them in the future

My answer:
In order to qualified as a prophet, you must have a scripture.And believe me, no scriptures like Quran or like what God have sent before will exist after Muhammad. So, no prophet ler...

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7)
Sorry me friend I don change subject and my reply is always related to the issue discussed here. It's you who need more knowledge in your religion if you want to debate otherwise just withdraw and hybernate.

My answer:
Everytime you become speechless, you changed the topic. Without evidences and without reason.Not related.Many times.You should learn my religion more and read my scripture as frequent as you can.I believe that in the 25 years time, you are able to re-read my scripture many times, but what a shame...you are not doing that.But you claimed you did.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 7-3-2007 10:41 PM ]

loona · Post time 7-3-2007 11:29 PM

6)
Yes, GOD would keep on sending from time to time in order to teach thepeople of changes and to leave age old messages that may not beadaptabel to present state of affairs of world. And so Mohammed cannotbe the last prophet because many others would come and the newgeneration of people would see them in the future

My answer:
In order to qualified as a prophet, you must have a scripture.Andbelieve me, no scriptures like Quran or like what God have sent beforewill exist after Muhammad. So, no prophet ler...
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Emmm..this is a challenge for barney to just name a single person that was sent by God as a "prophet" after prophet Muhammad saw, together with "new" and modern "scripture" that was better than Quran, or even previous scriptures such as as Zabur, Torah or Injil as what you claim!

The only prophet after prophet Muhammad saw, that will be sent down to earth will be only Jesus, and yet he will be upholding Quran as the last scripture.
If Islam isnt true, if the Words of God and Prophet Muhammad isnt true, sure there will be hudred of prophets emerge after Prophet Muhammad era...but how come we dont hear the news of any single prophet after him? or we are too far out of reach from those new prophets? Just proof to us the existing of new prophets complete with the "renewal" or "update version" of religion that they bring on earth.

[ Last edited by loona at 7-3-2007 11:32 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 8-3-2007 10:26 AM

responded by loona: Emmm..this is a challenge for barney to just name a single person that
was sent by God as a "prophet" after prophet Muhammad saw, together
with "new" and modern "scripture" that was better than Quran, or even
previous scriptures such as as Zabur, Torah or Injil as what you claim!

Copy the Code

Adhi Shankara, Sri Ramaling Swami are a few such people who broeugh new messages for mankind. The Quran is no better thna any other. Each has its own value for the people it was given. So blowing your own trumpet is silly. You see Quran as unique but at the same time a Christian may see his Bible as unique while a Hindu may see the Vedas as unique. But it does not mean one is superior to the other. Use comon sense when dealing with such matters.

The only prophet after prophet Muhammad saw, that will be sent down to
earth will be only Jesus, and yet he will be upholding Quran as the
last scripture.
If Islam isnt true, if the Words of God and Prophet Muhammad isnt true,
sure there will be hudred of prophets emerge after Prophet Muhammad
era...but how come we dont hear the news of any single prophet after
him? or we are too far out of reach from those new prophets? Just proof
to us the existing of new prophets complete with the "renewal" or
"update version" of religion that they bring on earth.

Copy the Code

What makes you so sure? Is it because the Quran tells you so? Why not ask the Christians and hear what they will tell about the second coming of Jesus and what Jesus will be upholding? Pathetic!

barney50 · Post time 8-3-2007 11:42 AM

Reply #57 eastrun's post

I denied him as a politician because nowhere in the Holy Quran stated
about that.Furthermore in the Hadith and in the Holy Quran, he never
said that will stop dakwah just because he wanted to be a national
leader.But he does a leader for the battles.And he is not the person
who created the law of punishments as you claimed.Like I told you in
previous post, the laws existed about 1900 years before him (during
Moses period).

Copy the Code

My dear fellow, you need to understand the tradition of the Bedouins and their culture before Islam. You are not an Arab so how would you know how the Bedouins who lived and survived in the desert some 2000 years befopre Islam. Mohammed as per history of his conquest reflects the urge to be the eader of his tribe and at the same time the whole of the Arab nations. To become a leader of a nation during his period is not the same as what we see now. No such thing as political campaign to convience the mass. It is all war aganist the other tribe but how to create a war without a cause. Mohammed found a unique way and that was through the spread of his new found religion called Islam. Are you that stupid not to underatand facts?

EVERY prophet sent to a ummah is a leader of the ummah, BUT they are not a POLITICIAN as you claimed. . I am very clear with my prophets.They are all holy persons and followed what God has instructed them..including those Rishis.

Copy the Code

There is no holy in Islam or the prophet of Islam. It is all battle and blood so please do not speak about holy. The world hly was adoped by Muslims for the Christian source. The Chiristians refered to their divine doctorine as the Holy Bible and so the Muslims called theirs as Holy Quran after Christian Holy Bible. But as far as I can see thee is nothing holly about the Quran. 30 percent OT and 70 percent fiction.

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If you claimed that your religion is truth, then why you said that the
atheist can live without any religion?.It sounds that you yourself not
really confident with your own religion.I believe my religion is the
true one.Even Quran itself claimed that this situation (different faith
among humans in the world) is normal:
"And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your
Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).But people have
cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party
rejoices in that which is with itself.But leave them in their confused
ignorance for a time."(Surah Al-Mu'minun 23:52~54)

Copy the Code

Is that not a fact? They survive without the thought of religious belief and you do not not know if they will be going to heavan or hell as believed by you.

And only Quran made this commentary.Which meant Quran (by Allah
permission) tried to tell us, we all believe in one God, the prophets
brought same messages, but the people mocked them and changed the way,
and Islam came to re-union the law.That is why, after that no
Scriptures came after Quran to re-claim the same thing.

Copy the Code

Why do you expect the same thing? The world has changed since the time of Jesus and Mohammed and you expect it to remain as it was? You must e a joker. You believe in one GOd and so do the Christians and Hindus too. What makes you think Christians or Hindus have multiple GODs? Please do not refer to the trinity or Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva. You would not understand what it means nor are you prepared to understand such concept.

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I counter ask you.When your Rishis never proclaimed about the
authorization of your scriptures, then why do you still have faith in
them?.Because, you believe the scriptures were from God.And before this
I challenged you this:
"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time
to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your(doubts) are true."
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23)
Until now, you yourself not able to accept the challenge.Then, how can
you say the scripture was not from God?.Furthermore, your scriptures
also never claimed like what you have claimed.Are you against your own
scriptures?.

Copy the Code

Challenge what? The Muslims themsleve do not understand the Quran and so need another book and they call it the hadith. Why don't you try writing another Veda?

Muhammd also presented what he received to the others and his disciples
wrote down and memorized the verses he read.Because that is the role of
the prophets.I have no doubt bout that if your rishis did the same
thing.And of course Allah was the witness of the authorization.

Copy the Code

And so was HE to the others. If you want to accept as such. You see it was un fortunate Mohammed did not get to see GOD but only a invisible wittness but to Moses HE appeared in the form of the burning bush but to our Rishis, GOD appeared in person. So tell me whose scripture is more deserving? I need not have to tell you that, do I?

I don't care whether your Rishis went to the war and convert the
enemies or not, but Islam also never practised that before.See this:
"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he
may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (Surah At-Taubah 9:6)
"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him
who will, reject (it)......"(Surah Al Kahfi 18:29).
Do the verses above talk about forcing?.

Copy the Code

Are you blind and ignorant? What does it mean whae it says If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum ?

It clearly says when you attack them and if they seek asylm without a fight thne give them protection otherwise kill them. If you cannot read between the lines you are not fit to debate issues that you do not understand.

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Yes!, but the laws that brought by the prophets are same.I repeat the verse above:
"And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your
Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time."(Surah Al-Mu'minum 23:52~54)
The laws are same, then the ummah mocked them, then God sent another
prophet,to repair and re-confirm and re-add the previous laws.Until the
last prophet Muhammad.If you read in the Holy Quran, it re-comment,
re-confirm and re-pair the previous laws.Islam is to re-union the
actual messages.After Muhammad, proven that there is no prophet after
him.

Copy the Code

So, what you mean to say is GOD was unsuccessful or failed in his first attempt? Is GOD that weak? I can accept if Allah is weak but GOD, I don't think so. All Mighty knower is so weak that HIS attempt failed is the understanding of Muslims. Now I know why all this in fighting among the Muslims because Allah is a weak god of the Muslims. Yes, that is what you are saying and I believe you.

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They twisted the meaning of the Words.They took small part of the
verses and then they changed the meaning to make it suitable with what
they are thinking.Even though if you read the verses clearly, you will
find out that the verses are not like what they have claimed.I am not
contradict with my statement, But I give my explanations, with helps
and evidences from Allah. Alhamdulillah!!

Copy the Code

If they can turn and twist now surely the elders of the past could have done the same to the Quran and hadith after the death of Mohammed. That is why I say the Arabs were a cunning breed of Bedoiuns who exploited the religion founded by Mohammed for their selfish reason.
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In order to qualified as a prophet, you must have a scripture.And
believe me, no scriptures like Quran or like what God have sent before
will exist after Muhammad. So, no prophet ler...

Copy the Code

There was no such qualification as far as Mohammed or Islam was concern. There is not such thing in the Torah or Bible to say Mohammed was the chosen prophet of GOD. It was only claimed by the Arabs and not the Jews or Christians. And so how can I accept Muslims version which does not telly with the Jewish or the Christian holy books.

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Everytime you become speechless, you changed the topic. Without
evidences and without reason.Not related.Many times.You should learn my
religion more and read my scripture as frequent as you can.I believe
that in the 25 years time, you are able to re-read my scripture many
times, but what a shame...you are not doing that.But you claimed you
did.

Copy the Code

The truth is painful uh!? Yes, it is painful but you have to accept it otherwise you become ignorant all throughtout your life. It does not matter if you want to accept the truth or not but the fact must be told so that after you have heard it you'd have to pretend that you did not hear it. Yes, and that my friend is the teaching of Islam which religion you belong to but you cannot question for the rest of your life. It is painful but you have to live with the pain till death.