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Originally posted by JieShiang at 17-7-2007 07:21 PM 
Both shia and sunni use the same Quran. The difference is only on the tafseer. According to shia, Muhammad was sent for revelation while imams for correct interpretation (tafseer). If u are r ...
What happen to the tafseer of Quran made by Prophet himself?
This is the root of all the differences: Imam for correct interpretation.
UNBRIDGEABLE DIVIDE
------------------------------------
The protracted contrariety between Islam and Shi抜smis but a clear reflection of fundamental differences between the two.The only common denominator between Islam and Shi抜sm is the IslamicKalimah. The rest of Shi抜sm has very little in common with mainstreamIslam. The unbridgeable divide between the two is entrenched in some ofthe core fundamentals of this sect, such as:
* THE TWELVE IMAAMS
Imaamah is a divine station like Nubuwwat. This implies that Sunnis, who do not believe in Imaamah, are unbelievers. According to their beliefs, Allah had chosen twelve men to succees Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). The twelfth Imaam however disappeared atthe age of five. He is believed to be the awaited Mahdi.
* THE STATUS OF THE IMAAMS
The Imaams possess more knowledge than the Ambiyaa.They are superior to the Ambiyaa and the entire creation. The Imaams can bring the dead back to life. No knowledge of the heavens and the earth is hidden from them.
* THE INTERPOLATION OF THE NOBLE QUR扐N
The Qur抋n is incomplete and distorted in its present form. This tenet had been explicity propounded by the classical scholars of Shi抜sm, but frugally denied by the contemporary scholars.
* VILIFICATION AND APOSTASY OF THE SAHAABA
The Sahaaba were guilty of wilfully distorting and corrupting the Deen of Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). They turned renegade after the demise of Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) except the immediate household of Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).
* THE PERMISSIBILITY OF MUT扐
* VIRTUES OF TAQIYYA
Islam and Shi抜sm are two parallel streams of thought that can never converge. They are as distinct from each other, as isIslam to the Ahlul-Kitaab.To ignore these differences is to ignore the stark reality.
The often repeated hallowed call for "Muslim Unity"simply serves as a smokescreen, behind which Shi抋 missionaries penetrate Muslim societies. Any attempt to resist this imposition isbranded as "divisive". Would it be divisive to protect Islam from a sect that inherently debases the Qur抋n, the Ambiyaa, and the Sahaaba? Unity can only be forged on the basis of Aqeedah (belief). To label these differences as 慼air splitting issues |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 08:12 PM
Please find the references in the following:
Hadhrat Aisha (RA) and the Battle of Jamal (The Camel)
Hazrat Uthm鈔 (RA) had been murdered just after thedays of Tashreeq. The wives of R ...
I don't want to comment further about this summary of Al Bidayah wan Nihayah, from I don't know who but i think he/she has omited a lot of events which could prove him/her biased or jump to conclusion too fast. I leave it to other forumers to comment. What i would like to point here is that sahabah lied, cursed and even killed each others... i think it's proper for me to say that they were worse than most of us today for muslims nowadays don't killed each others at that magnitude (mass murder)...
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 08:29 PM
Not accurate... yes they are scholars but are not better than imam As-Syafe'i, Imam abu Hanifah and Imam Malik..., and I'm not in the position of taking many of their references and fatwa...
Do u think Imam Shafie, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Haneefa gave their personal opinions or fatwas about that issue? I have the tendency to believe it was only their personal opinions and not properly compiled as fatwas. Furhermore, which shia ie. Imamiyah, Zaidiyah, etc were they referring too, do u have any idea? or maybe the Ghulat which claim they are shia too.. I raised this issue because imam Malik was a friend of and Imam Hanefa used to learn from Imam Jaffar, one of the shia imams.
Not to make u confused, when forumers say shia here, they are referring to shia imamiyah, the one that believes in the twelve imams... |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 08:33 PM
[28] Dan (pada saat itu)berkatalah pula seorang lelaki yangberiman dari orang-orang Firaunyang menyembunyikan imannya: "Patutkahkamu membunuh seorang lelakikerana ia menegaskan: `Tuhanku ialah Allah?' - sedang ia telah datangkepada kamu membawa keterangan-keterangandari Tuhan kamu? Kalau iaseorang yang berdusta maka dia lah yang akanmenanggung dosa dustanyaitu, dan kalau ia seorang yang benar nescayakamu akan ditimpa olehsebahagian dari (azab) yang dijanjikannya kepadakamu. SesungguhnyaAllah tidak memberi hidayah petunjuk kepada orang yang melampaui batas,lagi pendusta.
Conceal: menyembunyikan tetapi tidak termasuk dalam berdusta
Dan bila ada kezaliman macam Fir'aun, dibolehkan untuk menyembunyikan iman setakat yang perlu.
At least now u have understood what is taqiyyah and what is dusta... "melampaui batas" is very subjectif... people have different levels of eeman... i think even now "kezaliman mcm Firaun" still exists... and taqiyyah is still permissible... shia IMHO practices taqiyyah nowadays to "menyembunyikan iman setakat yang perlu" as what u said. I think sunni in Iran also practises taqiyyah too.. it depends on where u live whether in shia or sunni community.... |
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[quote]Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 08:33 PM
Shi抜 authority, Kulaini, states in his 憁ost trustworthy and celebrated work of Hadith |
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juskurma This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 06:27 PM
Aiseyyy juskurma, saya bukan marah pada syiah... cuba baca betul2. Saya tak setuju sahabat dihina dan dicaci dan dimaki. Bilamasa kami caci/hina/maki ahlul bait??? Aiseyyy janganla kona2 tudu ...
kenapa tak boleh beb? tak per laa komer pakai dalil nakli, wa pakai dalil akli dah laaa.. sahabat tu kan ke "kawan" cakap melayu. ala.. setakat kutuk kawan nabi apa salahnya.Umar pun sebelum masuk islam, kaki botol. konon citer garang tapi berapa orang musuh islam yang dia bunuh?? tarak!! sebelum islam tanam anak pompuan dia idup2 ada laa..nabi suruh ikut usamah pergi perang tak mau konon usamah muda lagi..nak bagi wasiat tak diberi.. perang hunain cabut lari..tu bukan sahabat..tu musibat .... hehehe...
...wa kena belajor ngan komer.....
 juskurma 'tahan lama' beb! |
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Originally posted by juskurma at 18-7-2007 11:00 AM
kenapa tak boleh beb? tak per laa komer pakai dalil nakli, wa pakai dalil akli dah laaa.. sahabat tu kan ke "kawan" cakap melayu. ala.. setakat kutuk kawan nabi apa salahnya.Umar pun sebelum ...
sahih ke hadith umar tanam anak perempuan?
Adakah dia tanam ummul mukminin hafsah????? |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 08:42 PM
The ayat you are referring is referred to precaution towards Non-Muslim (unbelievers)
So you meant Sunni = Non-Muslim that will cause harm to syiah, that's why syiah practise Taqiyya towards Sunni?
لاَّيَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَـفِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَىْءٍإِلاَ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـةً وَيُحَذِّرْكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُوَإِلَى اللَّهِ الْمَصِيرُ
Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers,and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, unlessyou indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you againstHimself, and to Allah is the final return.
The issue is not about muslim vs non-muslim or shia vs sunni.. even muslim vs muslim (same aqeedah) if life was in danger due to corrupted rulers, etc (who believe in Allah but "zalim"), taqiyyah could be applied to save ones life. I think one who does not apply taqiyyah when necessary is "lurus bendul" and stupid because he not only harms himself, but perhaps others. ie family, mission, etc.. if sunni are willing to kill shia for just being a shia, then why not applying a taqiyyah to them.. |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 17-7-2007 08:58 PM
What happen to the tafseer of Quran made by Prophet himself?
This is the root of all the differences: Imam for correct interpretation.
UNBRIDGEABLE DIVIDE
--------------------------- ...
The Quran was the words of Allah and sent down to Muhammad through Jibril. The knowledge of Quran was with him. During the time of Muhammad, he was a muslim leader who implemented the knowledge to his people as duty. But when he passed away and replaced by the next muslim leader (shia believe Imam Ali as the God chosen one), the leader will inherit the knowledge.
That's why shia always emphasize about leadership (must believe in 12 imams as muslim leaders) since to be imam, there must be appoinment from Allah and the imam must be maksom. In other words, the true knowledge of Quran was with Muhammad and the imams only. That's why if u read hadiths or history, u will find Ali and the other imams will always be the most knowlegable during their time. Abu Bakar, Umar, etc did not posses this knowledge and always in need of Imam Ali to solve problems during their time. To make it worse, they could be influenced easily by Jews i.e Kaab al-Ahbar and quite ignorant of simple islamic rule i.e. tayamum. Even Imam Malik and Imam Haneefa learnt from Imam Jaffar (shia imam).
These leaders were not appointed by Allah through His messenger, but through i don't-know-what process because it's always kept changing.
[ Last edited by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 05:15 PM ] |
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Originally posted by ibnur at 18-7-2007 01:14 PM
sahih ke hadith umar tanam anak perempuan?
Adakah dia tanam ummul mukminin hafsah?????
Saya petik yang berikut:
for ur info, shia don't believe in hadiths as blindly as sunni... allhadiths can be questioned, ignored, accepted.. etc.. by any mujtahidaccording to their knowledge...
Jadi kalau hadith yang lemah atau palsu telah diiktiraf oleh 'Mujtahid' syiah, dengan sebab mereka tu 'maksum', maka kita dah tak boleh persoal lagi dah Ibnur.
Kalau persoal nanti depa Taqiyyah pulak..... |
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Originally posted by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 08:48 AM
I raised this issue because imam Malik was a friend of and Imam Hanefa used to learn from Imam Jaffar, one of the shia imams
If they are from the same mainstream why differ? Imam Jaafar R.A was not shia according to ASWJ. We believe many false narrations attributed to him regarding shia, that make shia believe he was an Imam of Shia. The same goes to Sayyidina Ali KW |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 18-7-2007 05:14 PM
Saya petik yang berikut:
Jadi kalau hadith yang lemah atau palsu telah diiktiraf oleh 'Mujtahid' syiah, dengan sebab mereka tu 'maksum', maka kita dah tak boleh persoal lagi dah Ibnur. ...
i think u should take beginner course "what is shia" because u don't understand 'shia'. Mujtahid is not maksum but imams are.
[ Last edited by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 05:24 PM ] |
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Originally posted by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 04:48 PM
Even Imam Malik and Imam Haneefa learnt from Imam Jaffar (shia imam).
Surprisingly both Imam Malik and Imam Abu Haneefa did not believe in shia. So your claim that Imam Jaafar was a shia imam is weak. |
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Originally posted by juskurma at 18-7-2007 11:00 AM
setakat kutuk kawan nabi apa salahnya
Kutuk kerana percaya sumber yang telah diseleweng adalah menjadi fitnah. Fitnah terhadap orang yang telah mati kamu tidak dapat pohon ampun darinya lagi, kecuali di akhirat sana. Dan tunggulah di akhirat sana, jika kamu yakin kamu di pihak yang benar mengutuk mereka... |
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Originally posted by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 04:48 PM
That's why shia always emphasize about leadership (must believe in 12imams as muslim leaders) since to be imam, there must be appoinmentfrom Allah and the imam must be maksom
This is just a claim:
1. the 12 Imam appointed by Allah
2. they are all maksom
Tafseer from shia. Unacceptable in according to ASWJ
[ Last edited by mnm77 at 18-7-2007 05:27 PM ] |
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Originally posted by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 08:34 AM
I don't want to comment further about this summary ofAl Bidayah wan Nihayah, from I don't know who but i think he/she hasomited a lot of events which could prove him/her biased or jump toconclusion too fast. I leave it to other forumers to comment. What iwould like to point here is that sahabah lied, cursed and even killedeach others... i think it's proper for me to say that they were worsethan most of us today for muslims nowadays don't killed each others atthat magnitude (mass murder)...
When I gave reason and references sahabah did't kill each on baseless basis, you did not want to comment and THINK the summary biased. Check yourself first!
Still you raise the point sahabah killed each other but ignoring why the tragedy happened
You raise the point to attack the sahabah but conceal the good deeds they did. The purpose is simple, shia wants to degrade them. |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 18-7-2007 05:21 PM
Surprisingly both Imam Malik and Imam Abu Haneefa did not believe in shia. So your claim that Imam Jaafar was a shia imam is weak.
There is not much difference between shia and sunni in terms of aqeedah and ibadat except leadership. During the time of imam Jaffar, not only sunni but even non-muslims were his students. his teaching cover many fields of study. Al-Jabar (aljebra) was one of his students.
Many scholars i.e imam Malik, Imam Haneefa (2 years with Imam Jaffar) were most probably interested in knowledge only. Or Perhaps taqiyyah  to survive since Bani Abassiyah were looking for shia to kill. Maybe they didn't want to be killed like imam Jaffar. The teaching about leadership/imamah was probably to the chosen students. |
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Originally posted by mnm77 at 18-7-2007 05:26 PM
This is just a claim:
1. the 12 Imam appointed by Allah
2. they are all maksom
Tafseer from shia. Unacceptable in according to ASWJ
Tafseer from sunni is also unacceptable to shia.. but if we compare the two tafseers, one would agree that tafseer from shia is more logical... and less contradictions... esp about imamah appointed by Allah
Bukhari and Muslim also mentioned about the twelve caliphs in their collection of hadiths... and most sunni scholars could not figure out who are those caliphs.. shia only smile |
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Originally posted by JieShiang at 18-7-2007 05:51 PM
Tafseer from sunni is also unacceptable to shia.. but if we compare the two tafseers, one would agree that tafseer from shia is more logical... and less contradictions... esp about imamah ...
Sorry. Sunni never agree tafseer from shia more logical. This is your opinion |
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Post time 17-7-2007 08:58 PM
Post time 18-7-2007 01:14 PM
