Need explanations regarding some of Bible verses

gunblade712

alahhh standardlah tuh..

bila dah kantoi, lari lah.. bukak thread baru...

those people (the Christians who ran away from questions) are such a cowards..

abgramly

bro,bila nk cantas kapir ni? jgn lupe bgtau kalau nk on.

gunblade712

where is debmey?

how come he cannot prove what he say?

it seems that debmey lied about his own religion.

cheers

gunblade712

bumping this thread so that the so-called Christian and self-claimed to have studied the Islam Debmey can come here and settle the question based on his own statement on the Bible.

If he can't, then we can see that debmey is another one of those big fat ugly liar and should be ignored.

cheers

airfilterkotor

Hahahahaaaaa...........opening a new thread, again.

GB,
Sorang tu kata nak merantau pi Israel, tapi bila balik sini buka topik pasal pakai tudung otak jadik lembab.
Adoi adoi.....

Yg sorang lagik purak-purak otak dia macam lembab, agar orang lain ingat dia mungkin tak faham soklan kita.

gunblade712

itulah.. typical sangat....

sampai bila thread aku nih dia nak lari? dia yang cakap, lepas tuh dia takleh buktikan.. hahhahahaha...

pelik betul lah dorang nih..

gunblade712

bumping this thread so that debmey may realize that he has one question (which ironically based on his own statement) that was left unanswered..

chatreyo

huh..penat la ak bace dr first page...seb bek la english ak tahap baek lagi...
like ur discussion too much...
n dpt tgk kebodohan debmey yg makan diri sendiri...

gunblade712

bumping.

why does debmey did not answer the question which based on his own postings and statement?

kompia23

Selain debmey... tak de lagi ke penganut kristian kat dalam forum ni??? Takkan nak menyorok kat C & C forum je... cam katak bawah tempurung lah plak (pinjam ayat kompia)

Yo bro, saudara dah pun dah tahu dalam forum religion ini... tak banyak kristian yang ada. Yang aktif pun debmey je... Saya pun tak selalu masuk.. bergantung kepada kerja.

Lagi satu.. Tu pinjam ayat tu, tak perlu bayar ke?? bagi balik...

To gunblade & airfilterkotor,

Penggunaan samaada versi manuskrip hebrew atau greek itu tak penting. Yang penting adalah translasi maklumat yang berguna. Dan ia memang berguna. Kalau saudara nak debat tentang kesilapan translasi, kita boleh debat.... Kalau nak debat keaslian buku alkitab, kita boleh debat... Kalau nak tanya soalan tentang ketidakfahaman buku alkitab, kita boleh bincang. Tetapi, jangan campurkan semua poin yang ada... Itu menyukarkan orang untuk menyatakan sesuatu.

KJ and NIV adalah dua buku alkitab yang ditranslasikan oleh dua kumpulan yang berbeza. Saya percaya walaupun mereka diberi manuskrip yang sama, apa yang ditulis juga tidak akan sama sepenuhnya tetapi membawa maksud yang sama. Tu sila fahamkan.

sekian.

kompia23

Question: Christians believed that this Spirit of Truth is dwell among all christians and within christian heart and faith.This spirit will guide them to the truth.(correct if im wrong)
According to the verse above and christian teaching, to whom did Jesus refer to (to be spesific)..? Is it: a)-12 true Jesus followers, b)-40 authors who inspired the bible(some of them are unknown), c)-Pope, d)-Bible translators, e)-Christians all over the world, f)-non of the above.

Can anyone explain.
Nak explain dalam MALAYU pun boleh.

Let me give you the right answer. The Spirit of Truth will be with the people who believe in Jesus Christ. You know why? because Jesus Himself is the baptizer. And because Jesus stated that He will sent the Holy Spirit to guide His people. So, there you have it... your wanted answer.

Here are the verses from the bible for you to refer:-

This is spoken by John the baptist
Mat 3:11; "I baptize you with[a] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

This is spoken by Jesus after He resurrected from death
Acts 1:4-9; On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." 6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

What do Spirit do
Rom 8:26-27; 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

What is the significant of Holy Spirit
Rom 8:14-16; 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Holy Spirit as Guarantee to Inheritance
Eph 1:13-14; 3And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession梩o the praise of his glory.

regards

[ Last edited by  kompia23 at 22-4-2009 16:26 ]

gunblade712

according to your brethren debmey, on his post #104, he said that the translator decided to use different manuscript...


lagipun, wahai kompia, jika terdapat salah faham apabila kamu dan orang2 muslim sendiri dalam membaca terjemahan (translation) Al-Quran, kami kembali kepada text asal, iaitu bahasa Arab, dan kita kaji daripada situ.

apa yang saya bentangkan kat sini bukanlah perbezaan daripada pemilihan ayat/perkataan, tetapi pemilihan fakta yang dibentangkan.

KJV menyatakan bahawa umur Ahaziah adalah 42, sementara NIV mengatakan umur dia adalah 22. Ini bukan perbezaan perkataan, kompia, tetapi perbezaan fakta..


boleh tak kalau kompia explain menggunakan bahasa asal scripture tersebut?

kompia23

KJV menyatakan bahawa umur Ahaziah adalah 42, sementara NIV mengatakan umur dia adalah 22. Ini bukan perbezaan perkataan, kompia, tetapi perbezaan fakta..

I researched the internet and found there are few answers to this question... but the one i think is more logical is as Debmey put it... Different manuscripts used..  There are two languages that the old testaments could be found; in Hebrew and in Greek.. Hebrew version would be a more accurate version as it was done earlier, as it has been used in the time of Abraham and Moses. The greek language did not come close into the picture because greek influence is non existence in old testaments time.

These explanations would serve to your question better, I believe:-

(By Archer 1982:206 and Light of Life II 1992:201)

Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers.

The two examples of numerical discrepancy here have to do with a decade in the number given. Ahaziah is said to have been 22 in 2 Kings 8:26; while in 2 Chronicles 22:2 Ahaziah is said to have been 42. Fortunately there is enough additional information in the Biblical text to show that the correct number is 22. Earlier in 2 Kings 8:17 the author mentions that Ahaziah's father Joram ben Ahab was 32 when he became King, and he died eight years later, at the age of 40. Therefore Ahaziah could not have been 42 at the time of his father's death at age 40! Such scribal errors do not change Jewish or Christian beliefs in the least. In such a case, another portion of scripture often corrects the mistake (2 Kings 8:26 in this instance). We must also remember that the scribes who were responsible for the copies were meticulously honest in handling Biblical texts. They delivered them as they received them, without changing even obvious mistakes, which are few indeed.


And by Matthew Elton

Again, this is the result of a translation error.  While the Septuagint uses the word "forty-two" in 2 Chronicles 22:2, ancient Hebrew manuscripts use the word "twenty-two" in both passages.  Because the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, the Hebrew manuscripts are more accurate.  When the Hebrew manuscripts were translated into Greek to make the Septuagint,
the translators mistranslated the "forty-two" in Chronicles 22:2 as "twenty-two."  As a result, some English versions of the Old Testament which were translated from the Septuagint may use the word "twenty-two," but this error has been corrected in most modern English versions.**

Hope it answered your question.

Regards.

airfilterkotor

Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers.

Itu yang jadi masalah pada bible tu...master copy punya copy.

airfilterkotor

Kompia, kita semua tahu gods word bukan benda main-main.

Sebagai contoh;
Terdapat sebuah buku yang mengisahkan perjalanan kehidupan seorang VVIP yang sangat kaya dan berpengaruh di dunia.
Buku itu telah di jual ke seluruh dunia dan mendapat sambutan yang begitu hangat di pasaran.

Malangnya setelah lama buku itu habis dijual, terdapat beberapa fakta dan cerita yang tidak benar di dalam buku tersebut.
Ini disedari sendiri oleh VVIP itu, tapi malang buku2 tersebut telahpun berada di pasaran.

Sebagai tuan punya cerita di dalam buku tersebut, apakah perasaan beliau sebagai seseorang yg sangat berpengaruh di dunia ni..?
Dengan mendapati cerita yang tidak benar, fakta yang salah dan berbagai-bagai lagi telah menyebabkan kekacauan jiwa dan emosi beliau.
Beliau sangat risau dengan reaksi pembaca terhadapnya, maklumlah fakta dan cerita yg bukan sebenar-benarnya.

Perasaannya marah, geram, risau dan sedih bercampur baur mengenangkan apa yang telah terjadi.

Tapi kegusaran beliau tidaklah lama kerana beliau seorang yang sangat berpengaruh, mampu melakukan apa saja demi kepentingan sendiri.

Akan beliau seret siapa-siapa jua yg terbabit di dalam kesilapan buku tersebut,...kerana beliau mampu melakukannya.

Ini contoh cerita aje tau.


Kompia,
...cuba bayangkan setelah sekian lama berada di dunia ini, baru mereka sedar akan kesilapan terjemahan pada kitab suci tuhan yang sudah lama digunakan oleh umat kristian yang lain.
Bukannya 100-200 tahun, tetapi 2000 tahun, kompia.

Selama itu jugalah mereka membenarkan umat kristian menggunakan kitab yang salah!
Bukankah itu namanya menzalimi umat sendiri...?

Bayangkan apakah perasaan empunya kata-kata di dalam kitab itu (gods word)...?
Selama 2000 tahun Kompia...bukan sekejap tu.

Betapa murkanya tuhan kepada pengikut-pengikutnya.
Tidakkah mereka tahu akan tingginya darjat kata-kataNya..?
Sehinggakan mereka lalai dan alpa selama lebih 2000 tahun..?

Betul Kompia, cuma kesalahan translasi sahaja.....no big deal pada kamu. Boleh diperbetulkan semula.
Malah mereka mampu merubah sesuatu yang besar ertinya pada umat kristian, dengan tangan mereka sendiri.
Namun itu semua seribu macam alasan untuk menyedapkan perasaan sendiri.

Tapi bagaimana pula dengan tuhan...?

Mahukah kita di tempelak tuhan kerana cuai dengan ayat-ayatNya..?
...cuai untuk menjaga ayat-ayatNya...?

Amanahkah mereka terhadap umat mereka sendiri...?

Fikirkan lah saudara.

airfilterkotor

Originally posted by kompia23 at 22-4-2009 16:23
Let me give you the right answer. The Spirit of Truth will be with the people who believe in Jesus Christ. You know why? because Jesus Himself is the baptizer. And because Jesus stated that He will sent the Holy Spirit to guide His people. So, there you have it... your wanted answer.

Spirit of Truth aka Holy Spirit.
Ok..ok.

Saya cut short je senang.

Holy Spirit Unitarian believers berkata pada mereka, Jesus BUKAN TUHAN.
Holy Spirit Twoness believers berkata pada mereka, The Father and Jesus are GOD.
Holy Spirit Trinity believers berkata pada mereka, The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost is GOD.

Ketiga-tiga Holy Spirit ini telah membawa ketiga-tiga penganut kristian di atas kepada 3 arah yang bertentangan dan berlainan antara satu sama lain.

"The Spirit of Truth will be with the people who believe in Jesus Christ(god)."
-Ketiga-tiga penganut di atas percaya akan Jesus, cuma ada yg tak percaya Jesus tu tuhan.

"Jesus stated that He will sent the Holy Spirit to guide His people."
-Ketiga-tiga penganut kristian di atas mempercayai bahawa setiap mereka mempunyai Holy Spirit yang memandu/ilham mereka kepada kebenaran.







Semuanya mengaku ada Holy Spirit, sebab semua mengaku kristian, ikut ajaran Jesus.
Persoalannya yang mana satu Holy Spirit yang sebenar-benarnya....??

gunblade712

Originally posted by kompia23 at 23-4-2009 15:02


The two examples of numerical discrepancy here have to do with a decadein the number given. Ahaziah is said to have been 22 in 2 Kings 8:26;while in 2 Chronicles 22:2 Ahaziah is said to have been 42. Fortunatelythere is enough additional information in the Biblical text to showthat the correct number is 22. Earlier in 2 Kings 8:17 the authormentions that Ahaziah's father Joram ben Ahab was 32 when he becameKing, and he died eight years later, at the age of 40. ThereforeAhaziah could not have been 42 at the time of his father's death at age40! Such scribal errors do not change Jewish or Christian beliefs inthe least. In such a case, another portion of scripture often correctsthe mistake (2 Kings 8:26 in this instance). We must also remember thatthe scribes who were responsible for the copies were meticulouslyhonest in handling Biblical texts. They delivered them as they receivedthem, without changing even obvious mistakes, which are few indeed.

they are comparing TWO DIFFERENT CHAPTER, kompia.

I'm asking about THE SAME CHAPTER, FROM A DIFFERENT VERSION.

kompia23

Itu yang jadi masalah pada bible tu...master copy punya copy.

Itu masalahnya, takde cakera padat masa tu... takde computer... Jadi tak dapat kekalkan yang asli.. Sebab tu dia orang buat copy..

Tapi kegusaran beliau tidaklah lama kerana beliau seorang yang sangat berpengaruh, mampu melakukan apa saja demi kepentingan sendiri. Akan beliau seret siapa-siapa jua yg terbabit di dalam kesilapan buku tersebut,...kerana beliau mampu melakukannya.

Bagus cerita saudara tu.. tapi saya nak pinjam juga... Amacam sekiranya. Saya kata sekiranya... Beliau yang berpengaruh yang tahu kebenaran buku tersebut telah meninggal dunia, dan melalui penulisan tersebut banyak orang telah mendapat hidup yang baru, inspirasi yang baru. Tetapi ada seseorang yang tidak suka dengan keadaan itu. Dia juga seorang yang berpengaruh, tapi tak sepengaruh yang beliau itu... dan dia bertekad membuat apa saja untuk menyekat perkembangan buku tersebut.  Dia mengeluarkan fitnah, memutar belitkan isi cerita, berbohong dan mulai menyebabkan perpecahan... Orang mulai syak dan terpengaruh oleh kata kata dia dan akhirnya wujud dua kumpulan; orang percaya dengan orang tak percaya. dan ia berterusan sehingga ke hari ini.

Ini adegan alternatif je... Jangan marah ye.

[quoet] Bukannya 100-200 tahun, tetapi 2000 tahun, kompia. Selama itu jugalah mereka membenarkan umat kristian menggunakan kitab yang salah! Bukankah itu namanya menzalimi umat sendiri...?[/quote]

Setahu saya tiada orang Kristain yang mengatakan kitab yang digunakan adalah salah. Takde.. kalau adapun masa murid Yesus tu patut dah tahu.. tapi ia tidak berlaku. Orang zaman dulu pun pandai. Bukan kita je pandai...

Selama 2000 tahun Kompia...bukan sekejap tu.

Lebih 2000 tahun dan masih kekal. Bukankah itu dah tunjukkan Tuhan menjaga firmanNya.

Betapa murkanya tuhan kepada pengikut-pengikutnya. Tidakkah mereka tahu akan tingginya darjat kata-kataNya..? Sehinggakan mereka lalai dan alpa selama lebih 2000 tahun..?

Tuhan murka kerana silap terjemahan no? Tak mungkin tu... Yang saya faham tentang sifat Tuhan ialah Dia murka bila orang berdosa. Pada pendapat saudara, adakah orang Kristian ini orang yang suka berdosa atau golongan yang mencari Tuhan?

Malah mereka mampu merubah sesuatu yang besar ertinya pada umat kristian, dengan tangan mereka sendiri. Namun itu semua seribu macam alasan untuk menyedapkan perasaan sendiri.

Ini tuduhan namanya. Jadi saudara, saya nak tanya. Bolehkah saudara pertahankan tuduhan ini. Boleh tunjuk di mana buktinya? Tahun bila dan pada zaman siapa, alkitab diubah? Zaman Abraham? Zaman Musa? Zaman Yesus? atau Zaman Paulus? Tujuan saya menanyakan ini adalah kerana alkitab telah dilihat bukan oleh satu orang tetapi banyak. Takkan mereka tidak tahu jikalau alkitab diubah.

Mahukah kita di tempelak tuhan kerana cuai dengan ayat-ayatNya..? ...cuai untuk menjaga ayat-ayatNya...?

Tuhan tidak cuai, sebab tu Dia perkukuhkan FirmanNya dengan perbuatan-perbuatanNya yang mukjizat.

Ketiga-tiga Holy Spirit ini telah membawa ketiga-tiga penganut kristian di atas kepada 3 arah yang bertentangan dan berlainan antara satu sama lain.

Maaflah saudara tetapi yang saya tahu semua Kristian yang ada di dunia yang mempunyai alkitab akan mengatakan Tuhan wujud dalam tiga bentuk. takde yang seperti saudara katakan, kalau ada pun itu mungkin ajaran sesat.

Persoalannya yang mana satu Holy Spirit yang sebenar-benarnya....??

Saya percaya saudara tahu apa jawapan saya kan... Trinity..

Sekian.

kompia23

they are comparing TWO DIFFERENT CHAPTER, kompia.

I'm asking about THE SAME CHAPTER, FROM A DIFFERENT VERSION.

It is the same, bro... The age of the King will be 22 not 42 because the king's father died when he is 40 years old. Just different reference caused the mistake.

Regards.

[ Last edited by  kompia23 at 24-4-2009 15:55 ]

gunblade712

*sigh*

so there are mistakes in the KJV's 2 Chronicles, kompia?