Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18.. To whom does this prophecy refer?"

sonny~~

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-8-29 06:19 PM:
so simple and yet want to argue. The answer or the verdit is JESUS is Dut 18:18


Case is closed and adjourned.

peace:2cool:

at last twit twinity n trinity blind followers have responded that they believe the prophet is jesus.  brave repond indeed but moronic in nature

jesus is supposedly god n the messiah n the saviour n now hes painted as a prophet
in other words twit twinity n trinity blind followers r painting their god as the greedy almighty.  
now how can that be?
coz twit twinity n trinity god must be man to save mankind; he must be a prophet too to save mankind; he must also be the messiah n the saviour to save mankind from his creation satan.
in other words, twit twinity n trinity god dont trust no prophet in this whole wide world to save mankind.  hes greedy for power despite his almightiness.  wot rot  :bg:

peace

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-8-29 08:58 PM:
Yup, Deu 18 could not have refered to Mo but to Jesus.

rami_ayyash

I rather being a Jew than being crazy obsessed New Testament reader.

If I'm threaten to be burnt by Christian terrorists and militia to recant my faith. I will say to them burn me now ... and ***** Lord Jesus!!!nf:

Debmey

The problem is, Deu does not refer to Mo like you Muslims claimed.
So what if you are a Jew?

rami_ayyash

I will kill Paul

amorist

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-8-28 04:45 PM:
In the Old Testament: " The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken......" (Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18)

This can't possibly refer to Mohammed. Mohammed is the descendant of Ishmael, and the Jews never looked at the descendants of Ishmael as "brothers." On the other hand Jesus fits the description "like unto Moses.".

The promise was made by God to Abraham. God promised a nation to Isaac as well as Ishmael. This is all mentioned clearly in Genesis. Therefore, the word "brethren" can refer to any of the descendents of Abraham.

Concerning the phrase "like unto me", let's see who is more similar to Moses:

1. Moses had both a father and mother. So did Muhammad. But not Jesus.

2. Immediately after birth, Moses could not talk. Neither could Muhammad. But Jesus could talk.

3. After birth, Moses did not live with his family. Neither did Muhammad. But Jesus was brought up by his family.

4. To the public, Moses as a child was breastfed by someone other than his mother. Muhammad too was breastfed by someone other than his own mother. Jesus was breastfed by his mother.

5. Moses married and had children. Muhammad married and had children. Jesus did not marry and had no children.

6. Moses took his followers out of his birth place to safety. Muhammad took his followers out of his birth place to safety. Jesus did not take his followers anywhere.

7. Moses formed and governed his own nation. So did Muhammad. But Jesus never headed a nation.

8. Moses was widely accepted by his people. So was Muhammad. Jesus was accepted by only a handful.

9. Moses was not killed. Neither was Muhammad. Jesus, according to Christians, was killed.

10. Moses was given a set of laws through the Torah. Muhammad was given a set of laws through the Quran. Jesus only came to implement the laws given to Moses.

11. Moses was taught what to say (eg. Exodus 4:11 - "I will help you and I will teach you what you should say" ). Muhammad too said only what he was taught to say. Jesus is called by Christians "the word of god", so he was not taught what to say.

12. Moses did not preach as a child. Muhammad did not preach as a child. Jesus preached as a child.

It is therefore clear that Jesus in very different from Moses and that Muhammad is very similar to Moses in many ways from birth to death.

I shall not bother to comment on any verse taken from Paul's book of rubbish!

Debmey

1 - A prophet like Moses


  Quote:
The first and second Biblical prophecies talk about a prophet like Moses. This likeness is fit for Muhammad, not Jesus:
  
Moses and Muhammad were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman, but Jesus was created by a special miracle.  



All humans except Adam and Jesus are born like you and me, so how can it be pointing to Mo?


  Quote:
Moses and Muhammad married and begot children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.  



So did your father. Does that means your father is a prophet?


  Quote:
Moses and Muhammad brought new laws and new regulations for their people, but Jesus came only to fulfill the old law of Moses.  



If that is the case, then Mo has clearly contradicted Moses.


  Quote:
Both Moses and Muhammad died natural deaths and were buried, but Jesus was raised to heaven.  



Mo did not die a natural death, he was poisoned.


  Quote:
Unlike Moses and Muhammad, who were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime, Jesus was deserted even by his closest disciples.  



Mo was rejected by both Jews and Christians. Jesus was not rejected by his disciples, he had thousands of them.


  Quote:
Both Moses and Muhammad ruled and legislated besides their being prophets. This was not the case with Jesus.  



So did a lot of other leaders.


  Quote:
The only likeness between Moses and Jesus was that both belonged to the Children of Israel, like all other Israelite prophets such as David, Solomon, Aaron, Isaiah, Daniel, Joshua, Zechariah, John, and many others.



Thats right, Mo was not a Hebrew and is automaitically disqualified from being the prophet described in Deu 18 as we will see.


2 - A prophet from among their brothers


  Quote:
If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. So the children of the one are the brothers of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs, so they are brothers to one another. Thus the phrase "from among their brothers" refers to Prophet Muhammad.  



If indeed if Arabs were descendents of Ishmael, that would have made them cousins and not brethrens of Hebrews. God specifically told Moses that teh prophet will be a brethren among the Hebrews in a generation far from Isaac and Ishmael. It would therefore not be applied to Arabs.


  Quote:
If the reference here were to a prophet from among the Jews, the phrase would go like this: "from among them" or "from among you". This is further substantiated by the third prophecy "your brothers the descendants of Esau" and the word "Kedar" in the seventh and eighth prophecies. Both Esau and Kedar descended from Ishmael, the forefather of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).



Again it says brethren and not cousins. Arabs were also not among the Hebrews like Jesus was with the Hebrews.
  

3 - A prophet from among the Arabs


  Quote:
The "Mount Paran" referred to in the fourth prophecy is located in the area between the mounts of Abu Qubais, Qi'an and Hira' in Mecca. This is corroborated by what is stated in Genesis regarding the coming of Abraham and his son Ishmael to Paran:



If you study the Bible carefully, you will realise that Mount Paran is not near Mecca but near the Negev desert.


  Quote:
"And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder

amorist

Looks like SFE has resorted to his illogical arguments..... and lies... a sign that he is lost for a reasonable answer! That's the problem with SFE - he can't accept facts!

Debmey

My posts have been the most logical, Mo could not have been the prophet described in Deu 18. My post is very logical. Mo could not

Truth.8

Originally posted by Debmey at 31-8-2003 06:46 PM:
My posts have been the most logical, Mo could not have been the prophet described in Deu 18. My post is very logical. Mo could not

Yup it true. Muhammad is not the prophet of Deu 18:18. The word clearly stated  "I will raised " meaning like Moses. Moses is Jews and  he observed Sabbath. So does Jesus. Does   Muhammad observed Sabbath? NO. Does  Moses has many wives? NO. Muhammad has many wives that include concubines which comes to 14.....who know he might hve  more than 14.

So simple yet our Muslims  still arguing about it.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 29-8-2003 06:19 PM:
[size=-2]so simple and yet want to argue. The answer or the verdit is JESUS is Dut 18:18

Case is closed and adjourned.

peace:2cool:

Truth.8 & Debmey can continued dreaming but FACTS are still FACTS!!!

From these verses (Deuteronomy 18:18-19) we conclude that the prophet in this prophecy must have the following three characteristics:
1) That he will be like Moses.
2) That he will come from the brothers of the Israelites, i.e. the Ishmaelites.
3) That God will put His words in to the mouth of this prophet and that he will declare what God commands him.

Let us examine these three characteristics in more depth:
1) A prophet like Moses:

There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad.
- Both were given a comprehensive law and code of life.
- Both encountered their enemies and were victorious in miraculous ways.
- Both were accepted as prophets and statesmen.
- Both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them.

Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlook not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well. These include the natural birth, the family life, and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus.

Moreover Jesus was regarded by his followers as the Son of God and not exclusively as a prophet of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims believe Jesus was.

So, this prophecy refers to the Prophet Muhammad and not to Jesus, because Muhammad is more like Moses than Jesus.

Also, one notices from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies.
- The first was the coming of Christ.
- The second was the coming of Elijah.
- The third was the coming of the Prophet.

This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist:
"Now this was John抯 testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ." They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No." (John 1:19-21).

If we look in a Bible with cross-references, we will find in the marginal notes where the words "the Prophet" occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18.
(Note: See the marginal notes in The NIV Study Bible, New International Version on verse 1:21, p. 1594.)

THEREFORE, We conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18.


2) From the brothers of the Israelites:

Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation, and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation.

The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad, a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed this prophet.

Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His "chosen one" and "messenger" who will bring down a law. "He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." (Isaiah 42:4). Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar?

According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad.

3) God will put His words in the mouth of this prophet:

The words of God (the Holy Quran) were truly put into Muhammad抯 mouth. God sent the Angel Gabriel to teach Muhammad the exact words of God (the Holy Quran) and asked him to dictate them to the people as he heard them. The words are therefore not his own. They did not come from his own thoughts, but were put into his mouth by the Angel Gabriel. During the life time of Muhammad, and under his supervision, these words were then memorized and written by his companions.

Also, this prophecy in Deuteronomy mentioned that this prophet will speak the words of God in the name of God. If we looked to the Holy Quran, we will find that all its chapters, except Chapter 9, are preceded or begin with the phrase, "In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful."

Another indication (other than the prophecy in Deuteronomy) is that Isaiah ties the messenger connected with Kedar with a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sung to the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11).

This is mentioned more clearly in the prophecy of Isaiah: "and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11 KJV). Another related point, is that the Quran was revealed in sections over a span of twenty-three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28 which speaks of the same thing, 揊or it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there.

Muslims believe, as taught by the Holy Qur'an, that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a righteous Prophet raised by God among Israel. He himself emphasized that, and if the Jews rejected him the kingdom of heaven would pass to another people.

Therefore, prophethood came to an end among Israel and the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, was raised from among the descendants of Ishmael (peace be upon him), that is to say, from among the brethren of Israel."(Deutronomy 18: 18). He (the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him) was the last Law-bearing Prophet and the Law proclaimed him in the Word of God, the Holy Quran, is "all truth" through which mankind has been guided, as proclaimed by Jesus. (John, 16: l3).

The Old Testament also tells us:-

"God (i.e. His guidance) came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise." - Habakkuk 3:3

Teman is an Oasis north of Medina and Paran is where Hagar and her son Ishmael settled according to Genesis 21:21, and where they founded the city of Mecca. The cave of Hira where the Prophet Muhammad first received his revelation is in the mountains of Paran. Moses told the children of Israel before his death :-

"And he said : the Lord (His word) came from Sanai, and rose up from Seir unto them; He shines forth from mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them." Deutronomy 23:1-2.

Here Sinai obviously refers to where Moses (peace be upon him) hailed from, since he had his vision of God there. Seir refers to a chain of mountains near the Dead Sea, an area which includes Jerusalem and Bethlehem and, therefore, refers to Jesus because he (Jesus) hailed from there. Paran refers to  prophet Muhammad (who brought the fiery new law) because he (Muhammad) hailed from there. The 10,000 saints could refer to the number of his followers who captured Mecca in a near bloodless victory.

In Isaiah 21:9-15 we find a forecast about the capture of Babylon by Arabs and the removal of idols. Babylon became Baghdad, a centre of Islamic culture after its capture. Tema mentioned in 21:14 is the 9th son of Ishmael (peace be upon him)  (Genesis 25:13-15) and is also the name of a city in Arabia probably named after him. Isaiah 21:16-17 and Ezekiel 27:21 also mentions Kedar another son of Ishmael.

Numerous other verses in the Old Testament such as Isaiah 20:20-22, 42: 1-9 and 60:1-11 can also be interpreted as referring to the Prophet Muhammad. They forecast the coming of a prophet to the Gentiles in times of Spiritual Darkness.

This cannot refer to other Hebrew Prophets or to Jesus who was sent to the Jews. In Isaiah 11:1-2 we are told of the coming forth of "a rod out of the stem of Jesse" on whom the Spirit of the Lord shall rest.

Christians think that this refers to Jesus because Jesse was the father of King David, but the Hebrew form of "Jesse" is a contraction for the Hebrew form of "Ishmael".

There seems to be no good reason for tracing Jesus to the father of David and Jesus was born without a father. No attempt is made to trace his lineage through his mother Mary but only through Joseph her husband, either in Matthew 1 or Luke 3, and they contradict each other. (see Matt 1:16 and Luke 3:23)

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 1-9-2003 at 06:37 PM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by Terong Pipit at 1-9-2003 01:31 PM:
Truth.8 & Debmey can continued dreaming but FACTS are still FACTS!!!

From these verses (Deuteronomy 18:18-19) we conclude that the prophet in this prophecy must have the following three charact ...

u are talking nonsense and crap.....because Christ and Moses strickly followed the laws of OT......where else Muhammad broke all those laws and replaced with satanic calling.

Truth.8

Is "the Prophet" of Deuteronomy 18:18 Muhammad? Question:

Is Muhammad the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18?

Response:

In Deuteronomy 18:18 (see also 18:15), the Lord says that this Prophet will be "like you [Moses]", and in verse 19 (see also 18:15), He says that the Prophet will speak "My words" and "in My Name". The only prophet of whom these things have ever been true is our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk.24:19; cf. Deut.34:10! - written before the incarnation; and Matt.21:11; Lk.7:16; 7:36-50; Jn.1:24-27; 6:14-15; 7:40-41). A prophet is both a fore-teller and a forth-teller of the Word of God (according to its Greek etymology confirmed by biblical usage), and there has been no greater Proclaimer of the word of God than the Word of God Himself, our Lord Jesus Christ (Jn.1:1-18; cf. Is.40:1-8). That Jesus is "the Prophet" Moses spoke of in these verses is made clear throughout the New Testament:

    1. Jesus' original disciples recognized that He was indeed "the Prophet". "We have found the One whom Moses wrote about in the Law, and whom and the prophets [wrote about]" (Jn.1:45).

    2. In Acts 3:19-26 (esp. v.22-23), Peter quotes Deut.18:15-19 as applying specifically to Christ.

    3. Only Christ can be a prophet "like Moses", because Moses is a "type" (i.e., analogy) of the coming Savior (cf. Heb.3:1-6). Like Jesus, Moses is the only one who spoke with God "face to face" (Duet.34:10 cf. Ex.33:11; Num.12:8), and there are many other points of comparison wherein we (and the Israelites) were/are meant to learn about Christ from the life and pattern of Moses. For example, Moses came down Mt. Sinai twice [the two advents represented]; ruled Israel [the King's coming reign]; was the instrument of God's deliverance from bondage [as the Messiah was re: sin, and will be re: the nation Israel at the end of the Tribulation]; Moses, along with Elijah, is also one of the two witness of Revelation chapter 11, and corresponds to Jesus at the first advent as Elijah does to John the baptist. Finally on this point, Stephen's speech focusing as it does on Moses, deliberately uses the typology of Moses as a type of Christ to prove to his persecutors that Jesus is the true Messiah about whom Moses spoke: (esp. v.37 with vv.52-53).

    4. Jesus the only way of salvation (Jn.14:6). "The One whom God has sent speaks the words of God" (Jn.3:34; cf. Jn.6:68;14:23-24). He is "the Word of God" (Jn.1:1-8; Rev.19:13; cf. Heb.1:1-3). No greater forth-telling or fore-telling of the words of God is possible, therefore there can be no greater Prophet than Jesus Christ.

    5. Lastly, Jesus Himself tells us this: "If you believed Moses, you would believe in Me, for I am that One about whom he wrote" (Jn.5:46). This statement is clearly meant to include Deut.18:18.

Yes, Jesus was not only a prophet, but the archetypical and ultimate Prophet predicted by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15-18. But He was and is much more than a prophet, He is also the Messiah, a fact that many of His contemporaries did not (or refused) to understand. Many of Jesus' countrymen rejected the idea that the Messiah must suffer for them before He ruled over them (Jn.6:14-15; and cf. esp. Is.52-53), and so they distinguished between "the Prophet" and "the Messiah", failing to see that they were One and the same Person, the very One who was with them (Jn.1:20-21; 7:40-41; cf. 6:14-15).

Jesus not only tells us the words of God, He is the Word of God, and the only way to eternal life through faith in Him and His saving work for us on the cross Jn.1:1-14; 14:6; 1Jn.1:1-2).

Muhammad and many others have falsely claimed to be prophets of God (or some god - the distinction is moot). This is a trend which is predicted by scripture to be on the point of intensification as the end times draw ever nearer (1Tim.4:1-4; Tim.3:1-9; 2Pet.2:1-22). The important thing for believers in Jesus Christ to remember is that all prophecy which is really true can be found in the Bible, the written Word of God, the true "prophetic Word" (2Pet.1:19-21), and it is to this prophetic Word, the very thinking of our Lord Jesus Christ, that we should ever turn our attention (1Cor.2:16):

"And I fell on my feet before [the angel] to worship him. And he said to me, 慡ee that you don't [do that]! I am a fellow servant of you and your brothers who hold onto the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony about Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

amorist

Like I told you, truth, don't give me any word from Paul's book of rubbish! I don't accept that book to be from God. It is only from Paul the Liar and his followers! So stick to the OT!!

Just let me ask you one simple question and please give a simple direct answer for once!!

Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus a Prophet of God?

If Jesus is the son of God, then clearly, he is not like Moses because Moses was not the son of God. If he is a prophet and son of God, he is still not like Moses who was not a prophet and son of God. But if you say that Jesus is a prophet, then stop calling him the son of God!!

Please make up your mind once and for all!!

Debmey

So why do you Muslims quote the Bible to support Islam?

Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus a Prophet of God?

He was both. A Son of God can be a prophet at teh same time, they are not mutualy exclusive.

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-2 09:49 AM:
So why do you Muslims quote the Bible to support Islam?


He was both. A Son of God can be a prophet at teh same time, they are not mutualy exclusive.

commonsense tells u god is god n prophet is prophet.  dont give that donkey excuse they're not mutually exclusive.  (remember god dont have penis while prophet has.  SONNYs not bein vulgar 'ere but tellin u hardfacts).

n commonsense tells u son o god is man n son o god per se bein god almighty himself is donkey talk.  no yahweh is trinity or twit tinity.  trust me

as such if trinity n twit twinity christians wanna believe jesus is the prophet then hes no god almighty as u profess.  otherwise u're claimin twit twinity n trinity god is the greedy almighty.  twit twinity n trinity god is  greedy for power despite his almightiness for he wanna be man, the messiah, the saviour n last but not least a prophet.

btw read AMORIST's postin.  its eye opener.  if jesus is god can moses be god too?  :bg:

peace

Originally posted by amorist at 2003-9-2 09:21 AM:
Like I told you, truth, don't give me any word from Paul's book of rubbish! I don't accept that book to be from God. It is only from Paul the Liar and his followers! So stick to the OT!!

Just let me ask you one simple question and please give a simple direct answer for once!!

Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus a Prophet of God?

If Jesus is the son of God, then clearly, he is not like Moses because Moses was not the son of God. If he is a prophet and son of God, he is still not like Moses who was not a prophet and son of God. But if you say that Jesus is a prophet, then stop calling him the son of God!!

Please make up your mind once and for all!!

Debmey

Have you seen God?

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-2 10:33 AM:
Have you seen God?

no
n u have right?  twit twinity n trinity god who can be murdered by his creation jews n romans, who must compete with his creation satan for his creation man's soul, who can pizz etc n so satanic st. paul's lies gonna continue  

btw tq for ur email.  SONNY gonna open it after me finish with this forum.  dont expect no reply ok  :bg:

peace

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 2-9-2003 at 10:41 AM ]

Debmey

so how do you know that God have or have no penis?

sonny~~

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-2 11:21 AM:
so how do you know that God have or have no penis?

should god have penis like man?  read  :bg:

peace

God is Invisible

Definition:

God cannot be seen by the human eye. Yet His eternal power and divine character are known and clearly seen by the things He has made.

Meaning:

The fact that God cannot be seen does not mean He cannot be known. Some men have chosen not to know God as they have denied Him by claiming that the world evolved by random chance and natural selection. But, if one were to look at the order of things as being held constant by the Creator, who created all things, one can begin to see the God who was and is powerful enough to create such a beautiful place even though He cannot be seen directly.

Scripture Support:

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 11:27
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

I John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Conclusion:

Just because God cannot be seen directly does not mean He does not exist. The things He created and the order with which they were designed point toward an Almighty God with tremendous power and wisdom.

Application:

I will seek to know and understand God through His Word and His creation. I will love my fellow Christians so that God may dwell in me and I may experience more of His love.