Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18.. To whom does this prophecy refer?"

Originally posted by sonny~~ at 2-9-2003 01:28 PM:
should god have penis like man?  read  :bg:

peace

God is Invisible

Definition:

God cannot be seen by the human eye. Yet His eternal power and divine character are known and clearly s ...

Well said and well quoted Sonny..they concur with the Muslim knowledge & understanding of God.

Originally posted by KENNKID at 2-909-2003 16:14:
Well said and well quoted Sonny..they concur with the Muslim knowledge & understanding of God.

Salam Kenkid,

MK ingat kita tersalah anggap kepada Truth.* dan Debmey dengan menggap mereka adalah penganut 'People of the Books" iaitu agama yang dutus Allah melalui Nabi Isa (Jesus) a.s.

Sebenarnya mereka adalah penganut ajaran sesat yang menyeleweng dari ajaran Jesus yang sebenar dimana Jesus is a Prophet and a Messenger of God IAITU mereka mengikut ajaran Apostle Paul yang 'diutus'kan olih Jesus the God.

No wonder these debate are still ongoing!!!:stp::bg:

Truth.8

Originally posted by amorist at 2-9-2003 09:21 AM:
Like I told you, truth, don't give me any word from Paul's book of rubbish! I don't accept that book to be from God. It is only from Paul the Liar and his followers! So stick to the OT!!

Just le ...

are u saying Sabbath which observed by Moses, Jesus and Paul too lie?

Why Muhamamd did not observed Sabbath? Is that because it was created for Jews? If that the case, then Dut 18:18 cannot apply to Muhammad because " Dut 18:18 says that I will raise prohpet like Moses" Muhammad did not keep Sabbath.

So simple and yet u still saying that Muhammad is Dut 18:18.

Yes, Jesus is God but came in flesh to testify God the Father and HImself as well. He have to born in human flesh to convince sturborn poeple like u.

Remember, Christ says " I was b4 Prophet Arbraham"

p/s: Moses was poor as well Christ. Muhammad get rich after marrying wealthy widow. Again, how could it be Dut 18:18 apply to Muhammad. Still saying Paul the liar or Muhmmad the liar or u the liar?

[ Last edited by Truth.8 on 2-9-2003 at 04:57 PM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by Mat Kampong at 2-9-2003 02:34 PM:
Salam Kenkid,

MK ingat kita tersalah anggap kepada Truth.* dan Debmey dengan menggap mereka adalah penganut 'People of the Books" iaitu agama yang dutus Allah melalui Nabi Isa (Jesus) a.s.
...

nak tau ajaran sesat? lihat lah dunia islam di mana Tuhan yg benar menhancrukan ajaran kamu dengan begitu dasyat. apakah ini bukan bala dari Tuhan yang benar? Ingat! segala ajaran  palsu termasuk islam akan mengalami kehancuran yg paling dasyat.

[ Last edited by Truth.8 on 2-9-2003 at 04:53 PM ]

amorist

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 04:49 PM:

are u saying Sabbath which observed by Moses, Jesus and Paul too lie?

Really? Paul followed the sabbath? Interesting!! Never read about this before!

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 04:49 PM:
Why Muhamamd did not observed Sabbath? Is that because it was created for Jews? If that the case, then Dut 18:18 cannot apply to Muhammad because " Dut 18:18 says that I will raise prohpet like Moses" Muhammad did not keep Sabbath.

The phrase "I will raise a prophet like you (Moses)" refers to the similarity between the prophet and Moses, not the conditions surrounding them. The sabbath has nothing to do with this. The sabbath was imposed on the Jews for their recalcitrant behaviour! Muhammad is not a Jew and neither are you. Who says you have to follow the sabbath?

The fact remains that Jesus is far different from Moses, while Muhammad is very similar to Moses.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 04:49 PM:
Yes, Jesus is God but came in flesh to testify God the Father and HImself as well. He have to born in human flesh to convince sturborn poeple like u.

If Jesus is son of God, then God would have said to Moses, "I will send them my son". Why should God say "I will send them a prophet" - which is so impersonal - when he is referring to his son? God said "prophet", not "son"!!

In any case, the son of God cannot be the same as Moses, a prophet! Moses is not the son of God, so how can they be similar?

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 04:49 PM:
Remember, Christ says " I was b4 Prophet Arbraham"

I don't accept quotations from Paul's book of rubbish!

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 04:49 PM:
Moses was poor as well Christ. Muhammad get rich after marrying wealthy widow. Again, how could it be Dut 18:18 apply to Muhammad.

Moses worked for another man's family and married into that family. Muhammad worked for another person's (Khatijah) family and married into that family. Jesus did not work for another family or get married into the family he worked for. Muhammad and Moses are similar! Jesus is different!

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 04:49 PM:
Still saying Paul the liar or Muhmmad the liar or u the liar?

Clearly from the above, the followers of Paul are liars!

Truth.8

Originally posted by amorist at 2-9-2003 05:42 PM:
Really? Paul followed the sabbath? Interesting!! Never read about this before!

The phrase "I will raise a prophet like you (Moses)" refers to the similarity between the prophet and Mos ...

Of course Paul observed Sabbath. There is one verses he said " We uphold the Laws" what does that mean? That include Sabbath and law of OT.

Even if u think Paul is liar  why then all our old prophet observed and practise the Sabbath? As Christ says Sabbath was create for MEN. Men meaning Jews, Negro, Chinese and any races. The Sabbath was created from begining and thats why God need all of us to fully observed Sabbath. When devil the satan could not stand the truth, he changed Sabbath to Sunday and Firday.

If u think Sabbath for Jews, why then u observed Firday? Since Firday created by Muhammad then it for Arab Muslims only and not for u.

Why must copy cat his style with big turban and long rob?

So, if u ask me....Muhammad and Koran nothing but full of rubbish and devil verses. Mr.Salman rusdie was right that it was satan who came injected the word to Muhammad.

amorist

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 09:23 PM:
Of course Paul observed Sabbath. There is one verses he said " We uphold the Laws" what does that mean? That include Sabbath and law of OT.

You mean, the guy who said this...?

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 09:23 PM:
Even if u think Paul is liar  why then all our old prophet observed and practise the Sabbath? As Christ says Sabbath was create for MEN.

Jesus was sent only to the jews and all remarks that he made referred only to the Jews.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 09:23 PM:
The Sabbath was created from begining and thats why God need all of us to fully observed Sabbath.

I have already provided evidence from OT as to when Sabbath was first stipulated to the Jews. Where is your evidence that Sabbath was stipulated from the beginning of man's creation?

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-2 09:23 PM:
If u think Sabbath for Jews, why then u observed Firday? Since Firday created by Muhammad then it for Arab Muslims only and not for u.

Friday is not sabbath. It is  not a day when we are not allowed to work or earn a living, the way sabbath for the Jews is. Besides, Friday prayers is stipulated for all Muslims, not Arabs.

You are really running out of concrete evidence for your claims! You'll have to do a lot better than this if you are to be convincing in your arguments!!

Originally posted by amorist at 2003-9-3 00:34:
Friday is not sabbath. It is  not a day when we are not allowed to work or earn a living, the way sabbath for the Jews is. Besides, Friday prayers is stipulated for all Muslims, not Arabs.

You are really running out of concrete evidence for your claims! You'll have to do a lot better than this if you are to be convincing in your arguments!!

Salam amorist,

Apa bolih buat amorist? Kalau dah tak dapat hidayat.. kau cerita camna pun dia akan begitu juga.. pintu hati dia memang ditutup rapat olih Allah SWT... that what he is.. sebab itu:
It is not through an act of the mind or will that anyone becomes a Muslim, but rather through the MERCY of Allah SWT.

so it's true.... the unbelievers will burn in HELL nf:nf:nf: forever!!!

[ Last edited by Terong Pipit on 3-9-2003 at 01:14 AM ]

Debmey

After so many posts, so where are we?
Muslims have failed miserably once again to show that the Bible somehow endorses Mo.
Where is it in Deu 18 bthat proves that Mo was a prophet?

amorist

Originally posted by Terong Pipit at 2003-9-3 09:13 AM:
Salam amorist,

Apa bolih buat amorist? Kalau dah tak dapat hidayat.. kau cerita camna pun dia akan begitu juga.. pintu hati dia memang ditutup rapat olih Allah SWT...  

Qur'an 17:97
And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.

Qur'an 43:36-7
If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of (Allah) Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one, to be an intimate companion to him. And most surely they turn them away from the path, and they think that they are guided aright.

Qur'an 5:72
Certainly they blaspheme who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Qur'an 5:73
Certainly they blaspheme who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; for there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

amorist

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-3 09:59 AM:

Where is it in Deu 18 bthat proves that Mo was a prophet?

The evidence is very, very clear. Moses and Muhammad are so much alike. Jesus is so different.

Christians have to resort to nonsence such as "both lived in Egypt" to justify their claims - and tell lies about covenants besides that. But lying is the nature of Christians, because, as Jesus said, the founder of their religion, Paul, was a false apostle!

Debmey

But Mo does not fit Deu 18 at all. He is first of all not a grethren among Hebrews and there are no distinct similarities between him and Moses while I have shown you indisputable similarities ebtween Jesus and Moses.
And I have yet to get a reply or counter to my post on that.

peace

Brethren" in the Hebrew Dictionary of the bible:
"personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as
near kinsmen of the Israelites".

Gen. 36:42 "...he is ESAU THE FATHER OF THE EDOMITES."
Deut. 2:4 "And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your BRETHREN the CHILDREN OF ESAU, which dwell in Seir;"
Deut.2:8 "And when we passed by from our BRETHREN the CHILDREN OF ESAU, which dwelt in Seir,..." Deut. 23:7 "Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy BROTHER:"

As stated, the "brethren" is a brethern of nationality.  Just as the israelis and the edomites were "brethren" so are the jews and arabs. Why would the arabs and the jews be brethern BY DEFINITION?  Isaac and Ishmael were brothers themselves.

Futhermore, the prophet of Deut 18:18 is the same "that prophet" of John 1:21-25.  "That prophet" could NOT BE JESUS!!!

[ Last edited by The_Criteria on 3-9-2003 at 11:22 AM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-9-2003 09:59 AM:
After so many posts, so where are we?
Muslims have failed miserably once again to show that the Bible somehow endorses Mo.
Where is it in Deu 18 bthat proves that Mo was a prophet?

I agreed with u. These Muslims repeating same  old stories. They knew very well deep in their heart that Muhammad is not Dut 18:18 and yet they still arguing and sturborn.


They are real dump because one momenth they say the Bible is corrupt and next momenth they said Bible Dut18:18 is Muhammad.

Poor Muslims is wandering like Hagar.

Debmey

There is no evidence to prove that Arabs are descendents of Ishmael or Esau.
Even if they are, Arabs are also not kinsmen of Moses but distant relatives because there are many generations between Abraham and Moses.
If indeed yu choose to define kinsmen as Hebrews and Ishmaelites, then you will have to include Chinese & Malays as well as we are all descendents of Noah.

So you see, either way, Mo won't fit in no matter how you try to link lineage.

In John 1, the people mixed up the prophecies, that why they were rebuked later by Jesus and ultimately missed God and crucified Jesus.

Even if you doubt my interpretation of John 1, Mo will still not fit into the role of a prophet described in Deu 18 one way or the other.

peace

[ Last edited by Debmey on 3-9-2003 at 11:46 AM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by amorist at 3-9-2003 08:34 AM:
You mean, the guy who said this...?

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a ...

Why are u trying be smart when u do not study deeply about the Bible? I will  explained few here to your quiries on Col 2:16.

This verses is mean for those who are keeping old traditional. I give u an example, the  Malays keeps old traditional b4 islam came. Such old traditional like observing Moon, mandi bunga and all that craps traditiona practise by human. Paul do not want people to judge us according old traditional that practise by pagans believed.

Some even wash hand b4 eating which is traditional and some people like judge us when eating without washing hand or drinking.

Thats doesn't mean the OT laws is abolised. Many have misunderstood Paul writing. Muslims one of them because love accusing Paul the liar when we could see too many error in Islam and Muhammad is sex maniac.

Simple as that and yet u claimed to be islamic expert.

amorist

Is that so? Well, perhaps this one might wake you up:

Galatians 3

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[8] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

What does "no longer under the supervision of the law" mean?

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 28-808-2003 18:45:
...Muslims say that the Greek word which was translated "the comforter", actually means " the praised one" or "Mahmoud" in Arabic, in reference to Mohammed. It is true that there is a word, similar in pronunciation, which means "the praised one," however the word used in the Gospels is different and is accurately translated to "the Comforter." This, no doubt, refers to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, while Mohammed was flesh. The Holy Spirit was sent to the disciples, but Mohammed came in 6 centuries after the death of the disciples. The Holy Spirit was said that he would "dwell" with the disciples (John14: 17). On the other hand Mohammed never saw the disciples. It was said that the world would "not see" the Holy Spirit, but people saw Mohammed....

Again, Jesus never spoke Greek.  He spoke Aramaic during his ministry.  Let's analyze the verse that you presented:
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter,27 that He may abide with you forever" (John 14:16)

First of all, since Aramaic and Arabic are both Middle Eastern languages and have some similarities in them, I must tell you that in Arabic the words  "father (as your biological father)" and "GOD" both mean the same word "Rab".  So, Jesus saying "And I will pray the Father..." could really be read as "And I will pray to GOD...."  

Now as to "and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever", as a Muslim I believe that this is referring to Prophet Muhammad, since Muhammad in Arabic means "the glorified" or "the honored", and "Periklytos" in Greek also means "the honored" one.
I know that Christians believe that the Greek word for "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168).

But if we look at the case of John 14:26, we find that it is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit."

Spirit in the Bible refers to "Human Prophets" and not Ghost Spirits.  Take this example:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)

Therefore, there is ample proofs that Jesus predicted a coming of a Human Comforter and not the Holy Spirit as Christians falsely believe.  The advocate and the Glorified one that was foretold by Jesus is a Human Prophet and not a Holy Ghost.  This human prophet is Muhammad peace be upon him, and the the Noble Quran, the revelation that Muhammad brought from Allah Almighty is what "will abide with us forever" as Jesus said.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-3 11:45 AM:
There is no evidence to prove that Arabs are descendents of Ishmael or Esau.
Even if they are, Arabs are also not kinsmen of Moses but distant relatives because there are many generations between ...

Where in the world did you get the idea that they "mixed up the prophesies"?  That sounds very foolish.  Now when a muslim give you the proof it's "oh, those people back then who were ALIVE DURING THIS TIME had no idea what they were talking about"?  :bg:  That's a good one, however, there is not one christian scholar or passage in the bible that says "they mixed up the prophesies".  


As far as the evidence of the arabs being Ishmael's descendents:
Ishmael had children. Kedar was one of them.  Muhammad lineage has been traced to abraham through Kedar and his father Ishmael.  It is in YOUR bible.

If ishmael is not the father of the arabs, WHO IS DEBMEY???

Now this rubbish about chinese this, chinese that, these are his descendents too.  That may very well be true, which it isn't, but the problem for you still remains.  The problem is that NO CHINESE PERSON SAID THAT HE WAS THE PROPHET OF GOD PROPHESIED IN DEUT.  As a matter of fact, no prophet in the bible said that either.   Yes jesus was prophesied in the OT, but my friend, Deut 18:18 was not one of them.

I hope I was able to expose for you the fallibility of the New Testament and the entire Bible as well.  No person with the least brain can accept the Bible as a perfect book.  Therefore, what on earth is your point when you preach the Bible to others knowing that it is a corrupted book!! A very corrupted book!!!
As I said above, I must also remind you that the 30 or so books or letters or manuscripts that you have today in the New Testament came from among 24,000.  It's quite ironic to believe that the Bible is perfect.  It is obvious that there was so much bad stuff written on the tongue of Jesus and his Disciples. And you would certainly be quite ridiculous to say that GOD Almighty inspired the Church to only pick out the 30 or so books, because who's to say they were appointed by GOD Almighty to begin with to do this task.  Were they Prophets of GOD that we didn't know about?

It's ridiculous that only 30 manuscripts out of the 24,000 represent the Bible's New Testament today.  As you know, the New Testament consists of 30 or so letters. My question to you here is:  What divine authority did the Church have for discarding 23,970 manuscripts and choosing only 30 or so to form what is called today the "New Testament"?  If you have the least of a brain, wouldn't this be enough for you to prove that your entire Bible is pathetic and doubtful, with all due respect?

It also funny how the Bible's own Historians and Theologians admit themselves that most of the Bible's books and gospels were written by MYSTERIOUS authors!
  
If you do honestly deep inside believe in that as most Christians I encountered do, then you are openly admitting that the words of your Bible were chosen, written and modified too by only men, and GOD knows who they were, and not by GOD Almighty's real Prophets such as Jesus or Moses.  Believe me, this is not how you collect the Truthful Words of GOD Almighty.

It's funny how even those 30 chosen manuscripts have portions in them that are not agreed upon by all Christian sects today.  There are many verses in the Bible that not all Christian Theologians agree with their validity and Truthfulness.   

One example of that is The lie of verse 1 John 5:7 - The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7;

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This is the type of clear, decisive, and to-the-point verse I have been asking for. However, as I would later find out, this verse is now universally recognized as being a later "insertion" of the Church and all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all unceremoniously expunged this verse from their pages. Why is this?

The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his "Emphatic Diaglott." Mr. Wilson says:
"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."