Why Europe Developed Faster than the Middle East?

RainbowSix

I have a question to all.

Throughout history, there have been developments based on religious expansion and economic connections which spans the globe via the seas and continents. China has a rich history parallel almost to none and had a much earlier start than Muslims in the Middle East and of course Europe. India also had a earlier developmental start which compares only to the Chinese.

By the begining of the 10th century, Muslims were at the epoch of development. It civilization was at the apex spanning from India to Spain, while Europe was still in the Dark Ages. However, by the early 11th century, things began to shift. Europe began developing and since had never stopped.

My question is, where did the Muslims go wrong? To blame the degradation of its civilization on wars and conquests will not be enough. Europe was devastated too many times as well.

Muslim countries still have oil for over 50 years now. Its the only known commodity that has always been on demand throughout the modern age. Cultural wise, the Arabs, Seljuks, Persians and Indians were all rich with tradition and have been sitting on the Silk Road for over 500 years.

Technologically speaking, the Chinese and later on the Muslims had a much earlier start and developed further. Gunpowder by the Chinese and bronze cannon developed by Muslims to bring down the wall of Byzantine.

Now, again, why did Europe manage to outpace the others?

R6

fleurzsa

Mereka mempunyai sistem pendidikan yg praktikal, maju dan efektif.

Boleh semak semula bagaimana sistem pendidikan negara Islam / Middle East masa lalu n masa sekarang...

HangPC2

zaman renaissance

Zaman Renaissance merupakan detik sejarah gemilang tamadun Eropah. Pembaharuan ini bermula dari abad 1400 Masihi. Ahli-ahli falsafah barat mengklasifikasikan zaman ini sebagai zaman permulaan dalam peradaban 憁oden

mahathirGX

Pada  pendapat saya,  perubahan  pemikiran  masyarakat barat pada kurun -13,14 dan 15 iaitu zaman renaissance terutama dari  segi  politik  di  mana para  pemerintah  mula membebaskan diri  dari  campur  tangan gereja Kristian ....  di  mana para raja2  Eropah  mengambil ahli falsafah, sains dan  golongan berilmu pengetahuan sebagai penasihat  ...  Di  zaman renaissance  ni lah  lahir  ahli  falsafah  politik  yg  terkenal iaiti Niccolo Machiavelli   di  Itali  ..idea2nya  dipakai oleh  mana2  ahli  politik ...matlamat  menghalalkan cara..

Di  dunia islam  pula  agak  berlainan ...  di  mana2  golongan  sains, falsafah  ni  semakin  malap  dan  berkurangan ...tokoh islam hebat  yg  terakhir iaitu Ibnu Khaldun iaitu  sekitar  kurun-13 .. kejatuhan kerajaan Abbasiyyah khusus Baghdad sebagai  pusat  ilmu  ke  tangan Monggol melenyapkan ilmu2  islam walaupun kerajaan Uthmaniyyah Turki  kuat  ketika  tetapi  semakin  lama lemah ..kerana  tiada  teknologi  baru  persenjataan baru berbeza  dengan  negara2  Eropah .  tengoklah  kapal2 layar  Eropah  bermaharajalela di lautan pada kurun-13,14,15...

RainbowSix

Some scholars would hypothesize that the location and  landscape of Europe does play a role in its development. Europe seemed to have a location that protected it from the Mongols that purged the Chinese for centuries.

At the same time, the Muslims in the Middle East also sufferred the same peril. At the epoch of its achievements, the Mongols rampaged and decimated the Abbasid Caliphate.

Another school would look at the issue from the socio-politico context. When Europe was under the Pope, development was slow and in fact regressed. These scholars argued that when Europe separated religion from politics a.k.a secularism, development began to climb and accelerated.

The point is, why did the Muslims did not manage to develop after the Abbasid Caliphate? The Mongol invasion couldnt possibly be the only reason. Why couldnt it rise again.?

We seem to have forgotten that Europe was also rampaged by the Germanic tribes. Eventually, these tribes broke through and settled throughout Europe. It was after this period when development in Europe started to accelerate.

R6

[ Last edited by RainbowSix at 3-2-2006 03:42 AM ]

look..
curruption control malaysia,,,

that the problem..

fleurzsa

- Corruption
- Collution/ kroni
- Nepotism

fleurzsa

Org Mesir purba merupakan masyarakta yg terawal mempunyai tradisi ilmu.  Menjelang 500 SM mereka menghasilkan teks2 ilmu pengetahuan yg meliputi pelbagai bidang spt falsafah, astronomi, matematik, perubatan dan undang2.

Tradisi ilmu juga terdpt dlm masyarakat lain spt India Purba (sejak 4000 SM), China Purba (sejak 2000 SM), Parsi Purba (SEjak 100 SM) dan Yunani-Rom (sejak 500 SM)

Satu ciri utama yg ketara dlm tamadun2 awal ialah berlakunya pinjam meminjam atr satu tamadun dgn yg lain.  Cth... org Islam mempelajari angka sifar dr India.  Org Islam juga mempelajari ilmu bintang dan perubatan dr India.

Bidang teknologi, org Arab mempelajari teknik membuat kertas drp org China.

Dlm bidang pelayaran org2 China mempelajari kemahiran pelayaran dan peta drp org2 Arab.  

Jelas juga org2 Barat mempelajari ilmu pelayaran drp Arab.

Dlm bidang ilmu pengetahuan org2 Arab memberi sumbangan besar kpd dunia moden.  Malah ilmu pengetahuan dr Arab dipindahkan ke Eropah sehingga menyebabkan dunia Barat mencapai kejayaan tinggi dlm bidang ilmu pengetahuan.

Dlm bidang penulisan Sejarah, tokoh Arab yg terkenal di Barat ialah Ibn Khaldun.

Dlm bidang falsafah , karya2 falsafah oleh ahli2 falsafah Yunani diterjemahkan ke dlm bahasa Arab.

fleurzsa

Perkembangan intelektual mencapai kemuncaknya di Eropah pd zaman Renaisans.  Idea2 utama yg menunjangi zaman ini memungkinkan Eropah menerokai pemikiran baru dlm bidang politik, ekonomi dan sosial.

Nilai2 yg tersemai pd zaman Renaisans juga membawa kpd per5kembangan fahaman rasionalisme ke tahap paling tinggi melalu pelbagai penemuan baru pd zaman Revolusi Sains (1450-1700 M)

mahathirGX

Perkembangan  di  Eropah  penuh  dengan  peperangan  &  penaklukan ...  menggalakkan pembangunan teknologi  persenjataan  dan  perkembangan sains ...  kelebihan ni  digunakan oleh  negara2  Eropah  meluaskan  jajahan taklukan..  mereka  membuka  kawasan  baru  di  Amerika Selatan utk  meluaskan jajahan taklukan ...  mereka  juga  berkuasa  di  lautan utama di  dunia ..  teknologi  perkapalan Eropah lebih maju  dari  negara2  islam &  Asia ...ni  memberi  kelebihan kepada  mereka

RainbowSix

Allow me to share one great development in medieval history; the mechanical clock and its predecessor.

The Chinese during the Tang and Sung Dynasties developed what was called astronomical water clocks. The invention was made for emporors and were remarked as monumental projects. However, the Chinese water clocks were primarily used for astrology and not as to determined time and seasonal changes. Thus, would allow a better plan for crop planting and harvest.

Muslims during Harun Al-Rashid also invented a type of water clock. These were primarily cumbersome contraptions that determined the time for prayers and of course time. These water clocks were developed well in advance of anything Europe could even imagine at the time. In fact so advanced were these clocks, Harun Al-Rashid presented one to Charlamenge as agift in 800CE.

The point of contention is that, it was Europe which developed the mechanical clock. The mechanical clock appeared in Italy and England in the 13th century. From there the use of mechanical clocks spread. These clocks are more reliable than the Chinese and Muslim inventions. The importance of mechanical clocks were so much, it allowed farmers to plant and harvest at appropriate time. Businesses and government service were more accurate and structured. Thus, the population of Europe grew.

As you can see, somehow, somewhere development shifted from the Chinese, Muslims and eventually gave Europe the upper hand.

R6

fleurzsa

Berdasarkan Teori Cabaran Budaya... yg ditekan akan bangkit utk naik..

So sekarang masa utk Barat naik krn mereka tlh berada dlm zaman gelap agak lama.

Negara2 Islam pula pasti akan bangkit utk naik suatu masa hadapan....

RainbowSix

Another great historical development can be seen with the discovery of gunpowder.

To begin with, it was the Chinese who discovered gunpowder before the 11th century. Chinese science was of course beyond compare but only used gunpowder in powder form. Gunpowder was used as incendiaries rather than explosives against the Mongols and other nomadic tribes. It created fear to the invading hordes but never was developed to the extend of revolution in military technology. The Chinese never did develop it further for faster ignition and thus, more useful for warfare.

Muslims discovered gunpowder from the Chinese and did develop it further. The Muslim scientists from 700-1100 CE were the most advanced of the time. The Muslim civilisation surpassed everything the Europeans and even the Chinese at the time. Early use of bronze cannon was the result of Muslim scientists experimenting it usage. However, something happened that depreciated scientific discoveries of the Muslim world. Scientists were accused of heresy and were denounced as misleading the community.

Europeans discovered gunpowder from contacts with Muslims especially in Andalusia in the 13th century. From there Europeans developed it further to become explosive and fused the powder with kernel for faster burning. Hence, the birth of explosives and eventually cannons and muskets. Thus, the tip of balance of power changed to their favour.

Now, the significance of gunpowder and the eventual development to the production of muskets, cannons had allowed Europeans to explore the world with military supremacy. Spain discovered America and dominated the continent. The British later conquered China during the Opium War as the Chinese were still inadequately armed, the US demanded Japan to be opened and landed on its shores with sheer military might and unhindered.

Muslims progressed but it was only during the Ottoman Empire when moderninity caught up. However, the Turks were dependent on the Germans for supplies eventually were forced to into WWI. Dependence on arms and innovation forced the Ottamans to be part of a conflict which led to its demise soon after WWI.

In coclusion, I believe somewhere the Muslims went wrong by distortion of scientific discoveries and religious devotion. These two should be hand-in hand.

R6

[ Last edited by RainbowSix at 10-2-2006 01:58 AM ]

thamrong

This is very excellent topic. I hate to see it dies a natural death. Cammon guys keep the pot boiling.


All I can think of at the moment is the scientific advance of Europe started with the decline of Scholastic ideology and the rise of Humanism.:hmm::hmm:

thamrong

Munkin  posting saya #14 yang lepas 慶reate more  confusion then answer

HangPC2

Originally posted by mahathirGX at 2-2-2006 05:58 PM
kerajaan Uthmaniyyah Turki  kuat  ketika  tetapi  semakin  lama lemah ..kerana  tiada  teknologi  baru  persenjataan baru berbeza  dengan  negara2  Eropah .  tengoklah  kapal2 layar  Eropah  bermaharajalela di lautan pada kurun-13,14,15

Ottoman Empire Warship

Galley Warships (Kardigas)





Galleon Warships (Kalyon)

Galleon-sized warships were first incorporated into the Ottoman navy during the reign of Bayezid II. During that time, Ottoman galleons measured between 43 and 64 zira in length -- and were of the 1500 to 2000 ton 'class'.
But when Selim III ascended the throne, the Ottoman Navy improved by leaps and bounds -- to match the best of Europe...





Ottoman (Uthmaniyah) Empire Canon





p/s: negara eropah pun terpaksa bersaing dengan Uthmaniyah

[ Last edited by HangPC2 at 6-3-2006 10:21 AM ]

RainbowSix

Manusia mula bebas berfikir tanpa dibendung . Ilmu saintifik, epistemology rational dan empirism, perubatan, astronomy dan dll. berkembang dengan pesat.

This is what worries me.

Judging from certain point of view, religious bigotry or a narrow definition of religious adherence may be the root cause of the depreciation of the Muslim civilisation. Other examples also support this variable, as India and the Chinese empires were all subjected to certain religious ideology. The Mandarins were afraid of technological breakthroughs that could cause an uprising decided to close itself, only to find the British winning the Opium War. Later, China was invaded by Japan, a prelude to WWII.

After secularism reign supreme in Europe, it seemed Europe developed so much faster than the rest of the world. This new desire to conquer the world; the English would say; Make the World England became the epitome of European social focus.

Any thoughts on this?


R6

thamrong

R6 wrote:

This is what worries me.

Judging from certain point of view, religious bigotry or a narrow definition of religious adherence may be the root cause of the depreciation of the Muslim civilisation

You are absolutely right. If we take astep back in time during the glory days of Muslim years we probably noticed that it was the liberal and open policy during those years that Muslim achieved their scientific superiority. The truth is self-evidence. In Baghdad the yearning for secular knowledge parallel to the theological pursuits, the Muslim scholars mastered the Aristotelian and Platonic philosophies and wrote excellent commentaries. Adoption of ancient Greek medical science, astronomy and algebra from the Persian and Indian.:hmm::hmm:

hamizao

Off hand I would say one thing  which may have been suggested by the other posts one way or other:

Independent thinking - In Europe, societies broke away from the boundries of Catholic dogmas and interpretations. Only then new discoveries and advancement of knowledge began. Unfortunately, the Muslim world allowed itself to be controlled by religious zealots who  succeeded in placing the shackles round their brain.As the result...regression.

[ Last edited by hamizao at 18-3-2006 12:02 PM ]

thamrong

Originally posted by hamizao at 17-3-2006 11:23 PM
Off hand I would say one thing  which may have been suggested by the other posts one way or other:

Independent thinking - In Europe, societies broke away from the boundries of Catholic dogmas an ...

Not only regression but also decadence....the truth is self evidence. The Muslim centers of excellent ceased to exist and Arab Muslim countries were subjected to plunders and colonialism by the big powers which include the Ottoman Turks.