Sudan crisis .... (by: Debmey & Serphim)

Kid,

That's not just about regional conflict. What you are witnessing here is an ethnic cleansing taking place!

label them as black african is not really correct, because some of the Darfur tribes are Arabs mixed

Those killed for being black skinned even though are muslims.

Darfur rebel due to regional/territory conflict.. not religion

Partially. Apart from territorial conflict, the Arab-dominated govt tried to impose Sharia Law across Sudan even in areas heavily or overwhelmingly non-muslims populated. That starts another discontentment. That is what exacerbated the already continuing tension over territorial conflict. Recognized as the contributing factor that sparks rebellion. In short, Arabs were not accommodating & intolerant. They are the new comers. Not original inhabitants.

BTW the south conflict has ended

Sudan has been at war continuously with periodical stop. Concerns are long-term peace.

Lastly, I don't just read up from Sudan's sweet story telling their own side of the story. I do research on what's going on for months from all sides of the the spectrum & derive my own conclusion & form my own opinion.

:gantuk: ciao...

kid

Kid,
That's not just about regional conflict. What you are witnessing here is an ethnic cleansing taking place!

I'm not agree with you, it is not about ethnic.... African Black, mixed Arab-African, native people all live in Darfur and also other states, so what ethnic you meant? talking about ethnic, the second person after the president is actually from Darfur, he is black, so what ethnic you talk about?

Those killed for being black skinned even though are muslims.

FYI... almost all Sudanese are black skinned, I seldom see Sudanese with fair skin. If you meant African black, some of Arab-African black (not pure Afro)also live and at war in Darfur... so what black you meant?

Quote:
Darfur rebel due to regional/territory conflict.. not religion

Partially. Apart from territorial conflict, the Arab-dominated govt tried to impose Sharia Law across Sudan even in areas heavily or overwhelmingly non-muslims populated. That starts another discontentment. That is what exacerbated the already continuing tension over territorial conflict. Recognized as the contributing factor that sparks rebellion. In short, Arabs were not accommodating & intolerant. They are the new comers. Not original inhabitants.

Arab dominated govt?? do you know that many of the minister and even the second man is not Arab-Afro mixed? as I told you above... btw please put in mind that they are not Arab as Arab in Middle East...but Arab-Afro mixed.

FYI...the original inhabitant is not black Afro as you think, and it is not Arab-Afro mixed, but Nubian... their root from the ancient Egypt I think.. and they are not Afro black... their skin a little bit fair than Afro black...

  Quote:
BTW the south conflict has ended

Sudan has been at war continuously with periodical stop. Concerns are long-term peace.

Lastly, I don't just read up from Sudan's sweet story telling their own side of the story. I do research on what's going on for months from all sides of the the spectrum & derive my own conclusion & form my own opinion.

I mean ended because the peace agreement has been signed and the sharing power plan already in the way, you confused your self with the war at Darfur (which didn't stop yet) and the South rebel war which ended....

BTW... I wonder what kind of research you did, you seems getting incorrect story.... BTW I didnt just read news, I have lot of Sudanese friend and Malaysian friends who works in Sudan or doing business with them... I hear witness, not bias media..

ciao

DARSITA

Originally posted by Seraphim at 2-6-04 06:30 PM:
WHO seeks urgent action to avert Sudan crisis
Child death rate triple that of humanitarian emergency

(CNN) -- Millions of men, women and children may die in the Darfur region of Sudan unles ...

This on-again/off-again conflict has been going on for half a century. I do not want the sudanese to "deal with it"  ... This is the perfect kind of situation for UN action, isn't it?

Debmey

it is clear toall that the arabs want to ethnically cleanse the whole country so that they can run their own brand of fundamentalist goct in Sudan.
Forget about UN for a while, they have been proven to be hypocritical and ineffective.
what abt OIC? Why is it that OIC never even breathe a word abt it after almost 20 years?
And why the hell is the Msian govt helping all this ethnic cleansing?

sonny~~

Originally posted by kid at 2004-6-4 01:16 AM:


I'm not agree with you, it is not about ethnic.... African Black, mixed Arab-African, native people all live in Darfur and also other states, so what ethnic you meant? talking about ethnic, the ...

concur KID

when one wanna talk bout ethnic cleansin, its more like religion cleansin.  superdonkey bush is religion cleansin arab nations.  first PALESTINE then afghan then iraq then surely iran.  

n when one were to study history diligently, one will notice superdonkey america is changin the world from independent nations into all stooge americanism nations.  the chief stooge is mousy singapore of course  

peace  

kid,

it is not about ethnic....African Black, mixed Arab-African, native people all live in Darfur and also other states

Try all your might. This is indeed ethnic cleansing. Arabs make up 39% with Africans 61%. The indigenous African peoples historically do not speak Arabic and came centuries ago. The ethnic groups that lived & farm in the central zone or fertile belt which is the riches agriculturally are namely Masalit, Fur(the largest ethnic group)...etc. Those inhabit the northern zone or arid belt are nomads & semi-nomads are Arab ethnics & African Zaghawa. The communities under attack now are namely Masalit, Fur and Zaghawa.

You may downplay the situation nonchalantly but the way things transpire is extremely alarming and obvious. When Bosnian were massacred and a few getting shot in Palestine, muslims making ferocious outcry whereas 2 million had been killed yet we receive no similar reaction whatmore Sudan is a member of Arab League!

The central govt had been heavily dominated by Arabs since its independence in1956. Ever since the current govt took over power through military coup in 1989, it changed the administrative system and taken measures that are perceived as supporting political & economic cause of the Arab ethnic groups.

One might wonder Arab militias chasing after fleeing Africans into the Chad border prompting military action from Chad government after scores of Chadian were also implicated of its rout into villages of Chad as not ethnic cleansing! It also begs the questions why are the Arab militias keep appearing alongside government forces and gone scot-free of its atrocities.

almost all Sudanese are black skinned, I seldom see Sudanese with fair skin

As if I've never encounter Sudanese before. Get your facts right. You can easily get pictures from the internet!

their root from the ancient Egypt

And ancient Egyptians are blacks. This is nothing new but you.

you confused your self with the war at Darfur (which didn't stop yet) and the South rebel war which ended

How fast you've forgotten that you're the one who bring up South Darfur into this talk. Speak for yourself kid. We weren't talking about South.

BTW I didnt just read news, I have lot of Sudanese friend and Malaysian friends who works in Sudan or doing business with them... I hear witness, not bias media

You're getting stories just like Kenn that speaks on behalf of the govt. Here's the account from those who experience the oppression from the very govt you believe in: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR540632004
just to take one fine instance.

Debmey

I don't understand why Kennkid needs to defend Arab behavior. A Muslim fren of mine told me that Arabs are the worst Muslims.

I don't think he is defending them. He sees it as Islam bashing in the first place which I had clarified is not.

Debmey

If that is the case, then Islam has blinded him.

sonny~~

stick to ur gun KENNY

the truth gonna prevail

the HARDbottomline is white wannabe gonna squeal squeak n crow after superdonkey bush regardless heinous or cool  

peace

Debmey

sonny is just as blinded as kennkid then.

kid

ACH:

I Quote:
it is not about ethnic....African Black, mixed Arab-African, native people all live in Darfur and also other states

You quote:
Try all your might. This is indeed ethnic cleansing. Arabs make up 39% with Africans 61%. The indigenous African peoples historically do not speak Arabic and came centuries ago. The ethnic groups that lived & farm in the central zone or fertile belt which is the riches agriculturally are namely Masalit, Fur(the largest ethnic group)...etc. Those inhabit the northern zone or arid belt are nomads & semi-nomads are Arab ethnics & African Zaghawa. The communities under attack now are namely Masalit, Fur and Zaghawa.

You simply didn't answer my question, in Darfur.... the war is about the rebel... Muslim getting killed as well as others, in fact the most of the leader of the rebel are Muslim and they are from Afro and Arabs ethnics....you are talking about history and denied that Arab ethnic are involve in the rebel too, hence I still waiting for answer...

You may downplay the situation nonchalantly but the way things transpire is extremely alarming and obvious. When Bosnian were massacred and a few getting shot in Palestine, muslims making ferocious outcry whereas 2 million had been killed yet we receive no similar reaction whatmore Sudan is a member of Arab League!

This is getting funny... now you drag this into religion matter as if Muslim oppress non Muslim...do you know that Darfur consist of Muslim too? , while you clearly pointed out before that it was ethnic problem not religion problem... confusing yourself?

The central govt had been heavily dominated by Arabs since its independence in1956. Ever since the current govt took over power through military coup in 1989, it changed the administrative system and taken measures that are perceived as supporting political & economic cause of the Arab ethnic groups.

Oh really? so if the government dominated by Arabs , they are who take all the blame and just foget the Afro top leader who involve in decision making. BTW in Darfur Arab Muslim alos getting killed, but you try to forget this? I think you have "anti-Arab" mindset, so you can't see proper.

One might wonder Arab militias chasing after fleeing Africans into the Chad border prompting military action from Chad government after scores of Chadian were also implicated of its rout into villages of Chad as not ethnic cleansing! It also begs the questions why are the Arab militias keep appearing alongside government forces and gone scot-free of its atrocities.

You are talking as if Arab (middle East Arab) chasing Afro people...

I  Quote:
almost all Sudanese are black skinned, I seldom see Sudanese with fair skin

You Quote:
As if I've never encounter Sudanese before. Get your facts right. You can easily get pictures from the internet!

You get pictures from Interent? LOL
You are arguing with me... someone who deal most of his life with Sudanese... I myself doing business with them and have our branch office in Khartoum, I mix with lot of them and knew for many2 years... dont bluff me watson!

I Quote:
their root from the ancient Egypt

You Quote:
And ancient Egyptians are blacks. This is nothing new but you.

Ancient Egypt are black?? LOL you mean like Afro black? make it clear please.

I  Quote:
you confused your self with the war at Darfur (which didn't stop yet) and the South rebel war which ended

You Quote:
How fast you've forgotten that you're the one who bring up South Darfur into this talk. Speak for yourself kid. We weren't talking about South.

Yes, I told you that you are confused with the peace treaty between central government and South (majority Christian and Atheist) and the Darfur conflict... you see, goverenment willing to sign peace treaty and share the power with non Muslim from South, but you forget that... you just thinking everything in South is ethnic cleansing..

I  Quote:
BTW I didnt just read news, I have lot of Sudanese friend and Malaysian friends who works in Sudan or doing business with them... I hear witness, not bias media

You Quote:
You're getting stories just like Kenn that speaks on behalf of the govt. Here's the account from those who experience the oppression from the very govt you believe in: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR540632004
just to take one fine instance.

- I got stories from what?? mind to tell me?
- I believe in government? I believe only in God..
- Gimme another thousand CNN version of news, but why I hear and see different from my Sudanese friends? something very fishy ...kekekeke

Debmey

And why the hell is the Msian govt helping all this ethnic cleansing?

Kid,

You simply didn't answer my question, in Darfur.... the war is about the rebel... Muslim getting killed as well as others

You are answering your own questions. I am contending your assertions. Get it clear!

you are talking about history and denied that Arab ethnic are involve in the rebel too

Your ego is denying answers. I had given you a clear & concise account of the reality. In fact, if you could lump sufficient protein in between your ears, you'll find that Arabs involvement in the rebellion is insignificant for it cannot exonerate the fact black africans are killed in the millions; and millions being displaced. Malays & Chinese alike turned traitors against their own kind during Japanese occupation does not obfuscate the fact that Japanese commits atrocities!

now you drag this into religion matter as if Muslim oppress non Muslim

This interpretation is totally wrong! Your failure to recognize the disappointment I'm pointing out at the insouciance shown by this commonly bonded group with appalling indifference or by downplaying the tragic massacre when it comes from crimes committed by a govt of their own brethren!

foget the Afro top leader who involve in decision making

Then you should prove to me how many Afro leader supported the systematic squashing of rebels with absolute brutality that went on for so many years resulting in millions of death! Not just making assumption. Moreover, MAJORITY in the parliament are Arabs which is calling the shots. It also explains many Afro leaders are turning against the govt & defecting to rebels.

You are talking as if Arab (middle East Arab) chasing Afro people

Absolutely. Now only you begin to see my point.

You are arguing with me... someone who deal most of his life with Sudanese... I myself doing business with them and have our branch office in Khartoum, I mix with lot of them and knew for many2 years

Your dealing with Sudan is totally not the point to be considered because of your obvious support of the Sudanese govt. ;)

I've encountered a Sudanese Arab in UTM JB. He's not BLACK! The pictures shown in all official organizations are BLACKS telling their plights.

Ancient Egypt are black??

Yes! Now your onus is prove to me they are arabs or not blacks. ;)

Yes, I told you that you are confused with the peace treaty between central government and South (majority Christian and Atheist) and the Darfur conflict... you see, goverenment willing to sign peace treaty and share the power with non Muslim from South, but you forget that... you just thinking everything in South is ethnic cleansing

Kid. Stop making a complete twat out of yourself. From the beginning, we're not talking about SOUTH. The first South talk is brought in by you. Confusing eh? ;)

I believe only in God

You are no longer believing in God alone.

why I hear and see different from my Sudanese friends? something very fishy

Your denial & refusal to acknowledge millions being killed are from the oppressed ethnic of Fur, Masalit & Zaghawa shows how benighted your perception is. What your Sudanese friends are telling is THEIR story. I've challenged you with account from those who experiences the atrocities from the very govt you believe in: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR540632004
just to take one fine instance!

Debmey

http://www.sudan.net/news/posted/8660.html

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[ Latest News From Sudan At Sudan.Net ]

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News Article by KRN posted on June 06, 2004 at 14:45:09: EST (-5 GMT)

Muslim killing Muslim in Sudan

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Knight Ridder News Service

KAILEK, Sudan, June 06 -- The white-robed men on horseback shot two of Hamid Rahman's boys that scorching afternoon. They were 3 and 6. But they weren't the youngest or the weakest to die. The Arab marauders targeted the blind, the disabled, the women carrying children -- anyone who couldn't run fast enough.

"They killed even babies," recalled Rahman, 40, a survivor with sad, glassy eyes.

Here, in the furnace of the Sudan, an ethnic and political war is burning through the barren province of Darfur, mostly killing the helpless. It ignores cease-fires and international condemnation while tossing its survivors into a humanitarian abyss.

Its roots lie in a long-standing rivalry between nomadic Arab herdsmen and sedentary black African farmers amid a government policy of "Arabization" in a province where many inhabitants are black. At least 10,000 have died and perhaps 1 million have been chased from their huts to neighboring Chad. Andrew Natsios, the head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, warned Thursday in Geneva that as many as a million may die if aid does not reach them soon.

Government officials blame the violence on a rebel movement that took up arms 15 months ago seeking economic development for Darfur and a share of political power. They deny reports of atrocities.

But U.N. officials and human rights groups are using terms such as "ethnic cleansing," "genocide" and "war crimes" to describe what is unfolding.

Kailek isn't the only place to have suffered in Darfur. But the story, told to a Knight Ridder reporter by its former residents during a rare government-sanctioned trip to the region last week, is one of a murderous rampage and two months of torture, starvation and systematic rape by government-sponsored Arab militias.

At the heart of the tale is the role of the militias, called janjaweed -- "the men on horses." Across Darfur, they have unleashed their fury on black African tribes linked with rebels.

According to survivors, hundreds of janjaweed arrived in the Kailek in February. They galloped from village to village, slaughtering hundreds of black Africans, all Muslims like themselves. Truckloads of government soldiers helped them.

They razed houses, crushed mosques and tore up hundreds of copies of the Quran, Islam's holy book. They whipped women and children, surrounded Kailek and took everyone hostage.

"It was a concentration camp," said a U.N. official who visited the area in late April. "They were eating, sleeping and dying in their own feces because they weren't allowed to go out."

There was a method to the violence. Arabs were left alone, survivors said. Some joined the janjaweed to prey on their neighbors.

Sumia Rahman, 16, and her brother Anwar, 10, fled toward the mountains after they saw their younger brothers die. But their stepmother, Fatima, 30, was caught. She was taken, with dozens of others, to the woods and beaten. Then she was raped.

"If I was an Arab, they would not have raped me," said Fatima.

Meanwhile, her husband, Hamid, and several hundred men had fled into the mountains. As he climbed, he heard explosions in the distance. Planes, he realized, were dropping bombs.

Ten days later, the janjaweed sent representatives to urge them to return to Kailek. They brought along an elder to vouch for their sincerity.

Without food or medicines, they had no other option. Soldiers, he said, escorted them down the mountain. But in Kailek, they were placed under house arrest, along with an estimated 1,700 other villagers.

The janjaweed began to execute one or two of the strongest men every day, said survivors. Children died of hunger and thirst, while scores of women endured a living death.

"In the night, the janjaweed would go into houses and select ladies and take them away to be raped," village elder Adam Muhammed Adam recounted as villagers around him nodded their heads solemnly.

In early April, aid workers from the Atlanta-based agency CARE received authorization to visit Kailek. They found the plight of the villagers so terrifying that they issued a report and passed it to other relief agencies.

U.N. officials pressed the government to allow it to visit Kailek, but it refused. The government insisted villagers were free to leave Kailek.

On April 25, a team of U.N. officials and Western aid workers were finally allowed to visit. They, too, issued a report, only more scathing.

The U.N. report concluded that the janjaweed were indistinguishable from the police and had imprisoned the villagers. It found that eight to nine children under the age of 5 were dying every day from malnutrition.

The United Nations also alleged that local security forces were ordered "to prohibit, by any means necessary, any civilian movement out of Kailek." In interviews, survivors made similar allegations.

Zayat Ahmed Zayat, the regional security chief who oversees Kailek, denied the allegations. The government denied any janjaweed were involved or that it controls them.

A few days after the report was issued, trucks came to transfer the villagers from Kailek to a refugee camp in Kas, about 40 miles north.

No one lives in Kailek today. Mud huts, their straw roofs gone, are empty. The red earth is scattered with clothing, broken pots and pans, slippers. The village has fallen silent.

All the black Africans are gone, except for a handful who collect burned wood to sell in Kas. There, the survivors of Kailek still stare at death each day. The janjaweed are still around. In the past month, men have been murdered when they left the camp. Women have been raped while they fetch firewood, say aid workers.

"I don't feel safe here," said Sumia Rahman, her face scratched with worry.

But she is too scared to return home, as the government is urging. "Arabs killed our people. We don't want to go back," she said.


Comment : very very sad. Why is the Msian govt still supporting the Sudan govt? For dirty oil? What does PAS have to say about all this? Nothing? Why?

[ Last edited by DARSITA on 9-6-2004 at 11:26 AM ]

Why u call them negro? This term was only in use in the past century and early this century by racists. R u a racist? What is ur race?

Debmey

Negro is not a racist term. It is the same thing as using Caucasian and Oriental.

Anyway, don't try to detract from the topic. What do you think of Muslimskilling Muslims in Sudan? Why is Msia still supporting all these geneocide in Sudan? What does PAS have to say about all this?

Originally posted by Debmey at 9-6-2004 11:21 AM:
Negro is not a racist term. It is the same thing as using Caucasian and Oriental.

Anyway, don't try to detract from the topic. What do you think of Muslimskilling Muslims in Sudan? Why is Msia  ...

Then why the ppl who used to be called negroes in America changing it to African American? I think it is connected to slavery and 'black', because the word  the term negro is derived from the Spanish and the Latin words meaning "black" (negro; niger).

So, pls don't use that term.  u sound like one of the slave owners. R u a christian slave owner?  :hmm:

http://www.afrolumens.org/slavery/washfi.html

Debmey

I know yu are lame to create a strawman on this thread cos yu are stuck.

Anyway, don't try to detract from the topic. What do you think of Muslimskilling Muslims in Sudan? Why is Msia still supporting all these geneocide in Sudan? What does PAS have to say about all this?

Originally posted by Debmey at 9-6-2004 11:31 AM:
I know yu are lame to create a strawman on this thread cos yu are stuck.

Anyway, don't try to detract from the topic. What do you think of Muslimskilling Muslims in Sudan? Why is Msia still sup ...

Not my business. Muslims killing muslims is ur business?

I trust the Malaysian govt knows what it is doing. Track record man. Our govt's track record has been good n trustworthy. Why (i believe from the comments here u r Singaporian) is ur govt supporting zionists in israel?