OCTO***** TENTACLES

RedChaSiew

whether it is a  zionist party of not - u can debate with yourself.

.. the fact is he went to  NY as a leader of Tnuat Haherut.


one moment u are arguing about the invalidity of the year 1948.. next moment you're saying something about 1977. then u are saying the party is not a zionist party.

it's like chasing shadows.

[ Last edited by RedChaSiew on 28-7-2004 at 09:42 AM ]

It was you chasing your own shadows. I can prove it to you and everyone in this board. Keep your eyes open wide.

1)

Do you know what Albert Einstein said about Zionism??

2) Begin wasn't accepted into the Knesset in 1948.

3) Thus, he is not leader of Zionism but opposition.

4) His FIRST visit to US is in 1977.

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-7-2004 11:36 AM:
Dear Wicked,

This should end the confusion, in your own words: Begin helped found the Herut party in 1948 and was from then to 1967 leader of the opposition in the Knesset

Also, ...

FYI that article wasnt from my own words..i've pasted it somewhere from internet..im sure that website is from american's point of view (trying to be fair to you maaaaaaaa...)

Begin wasn't accepted into the Knesset in 1948.
---
He was not not accepted into the Knesset.  In 1948, he disbanded Irgun (because Ben Gurion had formed Haganah, the Israel army and Irgun's services were no more needed) and formed the Herut Party aka Tnuat Haherut, as the opposition party in the Knesset.

Thus, he is not leader of Zionism but opposition.
----
He was not opposing to Zionism.  Herut was the "flag-bearer" for the Revisionist Zionism.  It is also known as the New Zionist Organisation which rejected the old zionist ideas.  Herut Party was the grand daddy of Likud.  

From the Library of Congress:-
Herut (Abbreviation for Tnuat HaHerut, or Freedom Movement)
Right-wing political party founded by remnants of the Irgun (see Glossary), following its disbandment in 1948. It was led by former Irgun commander Menachem Begin and is the direct ideological descendant of Revisionist Zionism (q.v.). In the 1980s, Herut was the dominant component in the Likud Bloc (q.v.).

His FIRST visit to US is in 1977.
----
That was in his capacity as the new Prime Minister of Israel.  He could've visited US then as a leader of the newly formed Herut to get outside support, esp. when Israel was only a year old and created so much controversy.

[ Last edited by samerosie on 28-7-2004 at 02:24 PM ]

In 1948, he disbanded Irgun (because Ben Gurion had formed Haganah, the Israel army and Irgun's services were no more needed) and formed the Herut Party aka Tnuat Haherut, as the opposition party in the Knesset

Therefore, Beggin is not representing Israel in 1948 for he is indeed not incorporated into Gurion's government as coalition partner.

known as the New Zionist Organisation which rejected the old zionist ideas

This speaks for itself. The NEW not the OLD. The old is the original. The new are on their own.

That was in his capacity as the new Prime Minister of Israel.  He could've visited US then as a leader of the newly formed Herut to get outside support

Therefore, the fact is, he never visited US in 1948. The End. No need dispute.

RedChaSiew

.. we need to dispute your so called fact - he never visited US.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by RedChaSiew at 28-7-2004 08:46:
.. there are also plenty of smart jewsih people who are non neocons and non zionist.

..you can be a `zionists` without being jewish.

smart people are (example):
albert einstein, noam chomsky ...

:setuju::setuju::setuju:

ariyamusafir

read this: http://www.nobel.se/peace/laureates/1978/begin-bio.html

[quote]Menachem Begin

Therefore, Beggin is not representing Israel in 1948 for he is indeed not incorporated into Gurion's government as coalition partner.
---
Well like I said earlier, he could've visited the US as a leader of a new party to get outside support, not as a representative of Israel.

In fact, the letter signed by AE never said he was representing Israel but ".....obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections".  


This speaks for itself. The NEW not the OLD. The old is the original. The new are on their own.
----
Er, it's still adhere to the original aka old zionist ideology.  While the old ideology was to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine;  inspired by the facist movement; the revisionist zionism aka the new zionists want to create Jewish state to include the now Jordan as well and oppose to power sharing with Arabs and the transferring of Arabs out of these lands to create a jewish majority population.


Therefore, the fact is, he never visited US in 1948. The End. No need dispute.
---
Err...is this your prerogative as well?  Why dont we all just play "Adm (as oppose to Simon) says..."

[ Last edited by samerosie on 28-7-2004 at 05:17 PM ]

ariyamusafir

Admiral, please read this:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/begin.html

[quote]Menachem Begin
(1913-1992)


Menachem Begin was born in Brest璍itovsk in 1913. As a child he was forced to flee with his family to escape the fighting between the German and Russian armies in World War I.

A passionate Zionist from an early age, he joined Ze'ev Jabotinsky's Betar youth movement in his teens, rising quickly to important administrative and leadership positions.

By 1936 he was in charge of Betar Czechoslovakia, and in 1938 he became the head of Betar Poland, an organization with 100,000 members which engaged in weapons training to defend Polish Jewry, preparation and transport of 搃llegal

Excuse me Rosie, what are you trying to dispute here? The letter said Begin visited US in 1948. I say no. You say he could have. That is not the point. Your post amounts to nothing! Begin did not visit US in 1948 is a fact! You may fool yourself into believing he DID went to US in 1948. ok?? Now, go play far far away.

Ariyamusafir,

From 1948 to 1977, Menachem Begin was the leader of Israel's opposition

Clearly it is stated and I believe you can read it with your own eyes, Menachem Begin was the leader of Israel's opposition. The Revisionists are not in line with the old Zionists. How can they be called Zionist when they already form a new party? Can PAS be called UMNO because they originated from UMNO? Also, it is a fact in 1948, Begin did not represent Israel to the US. His FIRST visit is in 1977. That letter ought to be seriously thrown into doubt.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-7-2004 17:42:
Excuse me Rosie, what are you trying to dispute here? The letter said Begin visited US in 1948. I say no. You say he could have. That is not the point. Your post amounts to nothing! Begin did not v ...

Disregard that he was PM of Israel much later or his visits to the US as a Prime Minister, can you prove that he did not visit USA in 1948??????? Please show your proof. I have checked from other sources and found other sites that have the similar letter.

Please Ariyamusafir, try check the websites that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam and lives in Lebanon. Also try check again the anti-semitic hoax about a French woman attacked by 8 Arabs which is still running in the web.

Not all you see there are correct. You can find many reports that says his FIRST visit to the US is in 1977. There is no record saying he goes there in 1948. That letter is flawed just like Neil Armstrong and French woman's story. Many websites aren't updated at all or it was an ARCHIVE.

I just cannot understand why do you insists the letter is true and that anything detrimental toward Israel is all true. You may live with it. That's all I can say.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-7-2004 17:53:
Please Ariyamusafir, try check the websites that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam and lives in Lebanon. Also try check again the anti-semitic hoax about a French woman attacked by 8 Arabs which is ...

Then can you prove that he did not visit US in 1948???? or the so????

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-7-2004 17:53:
Please Ariyamusafir, try check the websites that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam and lives in Lebanon. Also try check again the anti-semitic hoax about a French woman attacked by 8 Arabs which is ...

By the way admiral read this

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin抯 political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

In no way states that he was the PM of Israel during that time.

ariyamusafir

Read this again, another different source with different but similar things!!!

[quote]January 1996, pgs. 59-61

Middle East History桰t Happened in January

Rabin's Murder Rooted in Zionism's Violent Legacy

By Donald Neff
It was 48 years ago, on Jan. 4, 1948, when Jewish terrorists drove a truck loaded with explosives into the center of the all-Arab city of Jaffa and detonated it, killing 26 and wounding around 100 Palestinian men, women and children.1 The attack was the work of the Irgun Zvai Leumi梩he "National Military Organization," also known by the Hebrew letters Etzel梩he largest Jewish terrorist group in Palestine. The Irgun was headed by Revisionist Zionist Menachem Begin and had been killing and maiming Arabs, Britons and even Jews for the previous 10 years in its efforts to establish a Jewish state.

This terror campaign meant that at the core of Revisionist Zionism there existed a philosophical embrace of violence. It was this legacy of violence that contributed to the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on Nov. 4, 1995.

The Irgun was not the only Jewish terrorist group but it was the most active in causing indiscriminate terror in pre-Israel Palestine. Up to the time of the Jaffa attack, its most spectacular feat had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by ariyamusafir at 28-7-2004 18:12:
Read this again, another different source with different but similar things!!!

1949, 1949, 1949!!!!!!!!!. By the way, those articles about Einstein postings to the New York Times was on other sources, with the letters posted the same. Also, some of the sites, with the one RedCharSew posted had also named it's sources and though you can say it is not reliable, however, can you provide a source??? Byb the way, the above article was a news about Rabin.

1) There is no source saying he visits US in 1948. Contrary, many sources reports his FIRST visit to the USA is in 1977.

2) Ben Gurion's opposition toward Begin's visit to US in 1949 is irrelevant in this thread.

3) The letter was talking about something that didn't took place.

Lastly, you may continue believing Being visited the US in 1948 the same as Armstrong heard muslim prayers in the moon then converted to islam and shifted to Lebanon together with the hoax anti-semitic attacks by 8 Arab youth on a French woman. You are entitled to live with it. It is your choice.

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-7-2004 20:19:
1) There is no source saying he visits US in 1948. Contrary, many sources reports his FIRST visit to the USA is in 1977.

2) Ben Gurion's opposition toward Begin's visit to US in 1949 is irreleva ...

The issue is that you said that the letter was fake. However, even if it really did not take place, assume only lah, the visit was planned and Einstein objected it. So, that letter is most probably writen by Einstein, contradicting your claim that it is not. Evidence proves it, not just one but many very different source with many different news, with the same main issue, Israel. Example, that latest article I post is about Rabin.

Also, I have evidence, I and many of my friends here posted sites and articles to support our claim, where is yours?????

Also, you say that people post different things, and also many might be lies right??? How do you know yours is not??? I am not saying that your sources is wrong, No!!! But what I am trying to say is that you have no facts and what makes you right in accusing ours as wrong and fake????

Also, you say many sources reports his FIRST visit to US in 1977, is it his FIRST as Prime Minister????

The article which was posted by RedCharSiew and I took it, it did not mention that Begin was Prime Minister in 1948. It mentioned that he, Einstein was against Begin's coming visit in which his letter was dated in Dec 1948. Then I found articles saying that the visit, 1949 1949 and Dec 1948, very near. So, the objective of debating such is that you accussed that the letter was a fake and not by Einstein with you trying to prove that the date mentioned this and that did not happen. So, evidence produced in this board and in particular, this thread shows that that letter is highly accurate, I don't confirm it as I wasn't born yet, however, have many articles which shows their source to be our evidence.

So, dare you still accusse that letter is fake???? Without having doubt???? Touch your heart. Come on, you know it, as I have said, PLEASE PLEASE check the site out first. Click on the ones I have posted first to see for yourself, rather than just read here, see it for yourself.

[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 28-7-2004 at 11:17 PM ]

Ariya,

It seems to me you don't understand what is being discussed. This shall be my last and best effort:

It mentioned that he, Einstein was against Begin's coming visit

Wrong. The letter says "The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to ... " and it was dated 1948.

Note: There's no proof Einstein wrote it. Read the letter again. It merely states that Einstein was ONE of the signatories.

End story part 1.

Secondly, I have read all your posts with the links! It did not says Begin visited US in 1948. I do not understand what is your problem. You keep telling me about how Gurion keeps barring Begin's visit to US in 1949. Do you understand what are you talking about? Seriously. I have keep repeating to you that had clearly shown Begin never visited US in 1948. It also mean to say in 1949 he didn't make any visit to US. Until 1977, that is his FIRST ever visit to US. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

Further on. You demands proof that Begin never visited US in 1948. How in the hell do you get verifiable material saying one person never visited a country? You never visited, let's say Norway. Can I ever get that information? Are you talking sense then? There was never such record saying Begin visited the US in 1948. Reports keep saying 1977 is his first.

Now. Since Begin have no such record that Begin visited the US in 1948 other than that dubious letter with his name on it along with many other purported signatories, how can this letter be the accepted truth to begin with?

If you can't understand even this post, there's no point talking further.

Also, I am entitled to QUESTION the veracity of the letter. It is your ONUS in fact to show proof of your belief not me!

[ Last edited by Adm_Cheng_Ho on 29-7-2004 at 12:05 AM ]