Why Europe Developed Faster than the Middle East?

hamizao

Originally posted by thamrong at 18-3-2006 10:45 AM


Not only regression but also decadence....the truth is self evidence. The Muslim centers of excellent ceased to exist and Arab Muslim countries were subjected to plunders and colonialism by the ...

True, thamrong.........

Decline came when the true meaning of Islam was allowed to be interpreted by rulers and the clerics, not realizing that the Message is addressed directly to Muslims. Whenever mishaps happened they maintained that  nothing could happen without the will of  Allah. Knowledge was not nurtured but defiled by the selfish. :kant:

RainbowSix

Originally posted by hamizao at 17-3-2006 23:23
Off hand I would say one thing  which may have been suggested by the other posts one way or other:

Independent thinking - In Europe, societies broke away from the boundries of Catholic dogmas an ...

I concur with your conclusion.The separation of Church from politics did propel Europe to the Age of Rennaisance. On the other hand, the Muslims made a mistake of resorting to religious bigotry. After the rampage of the Abbasid Caliphate by the Mongols, the Muslim civilization went down hill.

Another variable put forth is the role of races in molding empires. The Arabs did spearhead the advancement of scientific discoveries in the Medieval ages, until the fall of the Abbassids. Following that, the leadership of the Muslims were separated and indefinitive for a while during the Crusade Wars. It was only under Sultan Mehmet of the Seljuks, did Muslims managed to organise a renown empire which was the predecessors of the Othmani Empire.

As with the Chinese, the Seljuks were warriors and not managers nor administrators. In fact, scientific dsicoveries during the Othmani Caliphate usually depended on the idiosynchracies of the sultans and caliphs. If the sultan favours scientific achievement, science would flourish and prosper. One good example was Sultan Mehmet during the conquest of Constantinople. The bronze cannons used were the epic cornerstone of technology at the time.

The Chinese, after the Han, Tang, Qing dynasties were replaced by the Yuan and Manchus a.k.a the Mongols, there is a steady decline in Chinese scientific discovery. I would say the Manchus, the predecessors of the Mongols were great warriors, but lacked the tenacity for management and discovery.  

The general rule is that there is a distinct difference between the roles of races as each race has idosynchracies that are unique and definitive to mold the direction of the empire.

R6

[ Last edited by RainbowSix at 25-3-2006 12:19 AM ]

RainbowSix

Another theory why civilisation perishes is the evolving complexity of societies. A few scholars have made studies on past societies and come to the conclusion that societies become more and more complex until reaching a peak and declined soon after.

A civilisation would begin with the aim of accumulating resources. Resources in those era were food for growth, minerals for weapons and ect. With leadership, a society would embark on expansion to acquire more lands for more resources. This happens by conquest of new lands and territories. As more lands are conquered,the society transcends into a civilisation. In the begining, conquests would yeild large rewards as resources were accumulated and gave the growing empire the needed space and prerequisites to expand.

As the border becomes longer and larger, with more population, civilisations are driven for embetterment. With growth  comes new problems and challenges. Solving problems become a never ending drive as they become more and more complex. More cities, education, bureacracy, military manpower, weapons, currency, economy and food plantation and so forth.

After a few hundred years, a civilisation would develope and advance itself and facing a threshold of advancement. A large population would need a large crop harvest, an over sized army that that is difficult to maintain, territories which spans too wide and too difficult to govern and control, a large bureacracy with high expenses, while the cost of finding new resource dwindles as the reward became small. The civilisation can no longer conquer more land for resources as rewards are now too small.

This is a fact for most civilisations be it the Roman Empire, Chinese Dynasties and of course even the Muslim Empires. Note the fact the Muslims first fall from grace during the Abbasid Empire when knowledge and science were at its peak and yet failed to defend against the Mongol hordes. Again, a similar conclusion was apparent when Andalusia fell.

Perhaps, the Middle East Arabs have reahced its peak and complexity and completed the cycle of a civilisational development.

R6

[ Last edited by  RainbowSix at 12-6-2006 02:51 AM ]

zilandi

Salah satu sebab yang menyebabkan Islam semakin lemah adalah sikap para ulama dan orang-orang atasan Kerajaan Islam dulu yang tidak boleh menerima ilmu pengetahuan & sains yang mungkin boleh merosakkan agama ketika itu.
Banyak karya-karya  ilmuwan Islam semasa tamadun Islam berkembang telah dibakar oleh ulama-ulama Islam dan pemerintah.
Cuba bayangkan kalau ilmu orang-orang Islam itu terus berkembang mungkin kita mencapai zaman modern lebih awal sekotar 1700-1800 dan agama kita Islam sekular.

hamizao

Originally posted by RainbowSix at 20-3-2006 02:18 AM

I concur with your conclusion.The separation of Church from politics did propel Europe to the Age of Rennaisance. On the other hand, the Muslims made a mistake of resorting to religious bigotry. After the rampage of the Abbasid Caliphate by the Mongols, the Muslim civilization went down hill.

I doubt very much that the Mongols were the reason for the decline of the Muslim civilization as  seems to be suggested  above. I am sorry if my impression is incorrect.

The Mongols conquered China and the Middle East to have these jewels within their borders. It would therefore be meaningless for them to simply destroy those civilizatons. On the otherhand, China continued to flourish under Kublai Khan.

As for the Middle East, the Mongols were very aware and familiar with the reputation of Persian scientists, astronomers, astrologers, mathematicians and technologists who were without equal elsewhere in the world. Then there were also the arts: painting, carpet making, music and poetry. The Islamic Middle East was by any standard vastly sophisticated, wealthy and advanced civilization. Unfortunately, the young Caliph of Baghdad, Mustasim, the 13th commander of the faith was unfortunately an incompetent and cowardly individual. His weaknesses were already being exploited by ruthless officials who had become so used to running the city while he concentrated on spiritual matters. It is said that he could have tried to summon Muslim armies from various corners of the Empire to help defend Baghdad. Instead he preferred  the advice of his Chief Minister, Ibn al-Alkami, that Baghdad's defence was adequate. At the same time, Ibn al-Alkami was sending secret messages to the Mongols urging them to attack and describing the pitiful state of the Baghdad defences. From the Persian account of this treachery, it seems that while the Caliph was a Sunni, the Chief Minister was a Shia Muslim and he had resented the Caliph's persecution of his Shia brethren. I would hasten to say that such split among the Muslims is to exist even until the present day and is still being exploited for all intents and purposes.

Well, Ibn al-Alkami was rewarded by being allowed to keep his position under Mongol rule. While Persian historians tend to exaggerate the slaughter of Baghdad, there was evidence of a thriving economy just two years later. The Mongols, though not Muslims yet, were tolerant and impartial towards  religion. It was the Muslim Ulemas, one source says, the Sunni Ulemas, who unanimously passed a verdict that the doors of  "ijtihad" (interpretation) be closed. Thereafter came into practice "taqlid" (blind acceptance) of what was said or performed before. Christianity and Buddhism also made footings. When Ghazan the Reformer embraced Islam, Persia returned to the bosom of Islam till today. Arts and architecture/engineering  flourished. Unfortunately, Ghazan's grandson died without an heir and Mongol rule ceased.

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 13-6-2006 01:36 AM ]

thamrong

This is a very good analysis hamizao, and I am impressed. Islam downfall started from treachery and betrayal from within. It was repeated again in Islamic Andalusia in the 13th Century..

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 13-6-2006 09:41 AM ]

hamizao

Originally posted by thamrong at 13-6-2006 09:36 AM
This is a very good analysis hamizao, and I am impressed. Islam downfall started from treachery and betrayal from within. It was repeated again in Islamic Andalusia in the 13th Century..

Perhaps you could share the story of Andalusia someday.................

Trechery had always hounded empires everywhere and the divisiveness among Muslims has taken roots even since the early days. While learning, science and mathematics etc.grew within the Islam civilization as the result of it's contact with Greek literature through  Syria, Egypt and Persia which the Arabs translated hence initiating them to the art of dialectics and instilling the zest for novelty and inventiveness in the approach to all things. Unfortunately this led to differences in the interpretation of the Quran.

Already, Arab society was tribal in the first instant and the lure towards  sectarianism was a potential. It was revealed that an Abdullah Ibn Saba, a Jew under the garb of Islam, realised that potential when he interpreted the Quran to suit his purpose and contrived to form secret societies which led to the assassination of Caliph Uthman (656AD). He then attributed divinity to Ali and declared that all the previous three Caliphs as usurpers. So the seed of sectarianism had been sowed not long after the demise of the Prophet (PBUH). Further, zealous followers of different juristic schools developed the passion for sectarianism and verses of the Quran were further exploited to uphold, by hook or by crook, their own particular schismatic obsession.

I am of the opinion that this  sectarianism is the cause of  the downfall of the Muslim Civilization, a state of affair that still  bemoans a solution to this present day.

You are free to disagree with me........:hmm::hmm:

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 14-6-2006 11:12 PM ]

hamizao

By R6:

In coclusion, I believe somewhere the Muslims went wrong by distortion of scientific discoveries and religious devotion. These two should be hand-in hand.

I believe years of practising rigid "taklid"  had nurtured an attitude in approach and towards things technical - fearful of "ijtihad" or new things. You may refer to al-Qardhawi. Malik Ben Nabi goes further to suggest that Muslims have 3 chronic illnesses:

- frozen thinking (kebekuan fikiran) incapable of independent creative thinking and highly dependent on western thinking which, but then, still requires sieving,

-  undeveloped soul (jiwa yang tidak terbangun) which remains in shackles and putting the blame on others, and

-  spirituality that does not function for society (kerohanian yang tidak berfungsi dalam masyarakat). Spirituality and religion exist  only as relationship between man and god and does not include man's relationship with himself, society and nature. As such the role of religion becomes  narrow and surely it's blessing (rahmat) are limited.

There are also other internal challenges faced by Muslims apart from sectarianism and the above. Now, Muslims are faced with challenges from without too...the third wave of world civilization (Alvin Toffler). My take on this is many Muslim countries have not even crossed the second wave of world civilization! A lot depends on how Muslims understand and make preparations for these challenges.

topeng perak

sungguh sedih ... ketika knowledge is flourishing kat florence, venice ngan tempat tempat lain kat europe dizaman renaissance ... sultan turki pula sedang asyik dalam majlis tari menari di constantinople ~

hamizao

I think it is well realised that after the fall of Islamic Civilization , western civilization spread worldwide eliminating other civilizations such as the Andean, Mesoamerican and Indian civilizations by their expansionism policy . Africa was subjugated, China penetrated and became a subordinate. Then , only Russian, Japanese and Ethiopian civilization maintained some sort of independence for some time.

Many believe that we are now in the era of a 揢niversal Civilization

fleurzsa

Tetiba I terfikir bahawa Eropah/ Barat bangkit membangun setelah melakukan byk peperangan/  penaklukan/ revolusi.

Atrnya yg I tahu....

- Perang Salib
- Perebutan kuasa atr kuasa sekular dgn raja & gereja
- Perkembangan Kapitalisme
- Perang 100 thn
- Renaisans
- Reformasi Agama
- Revolusi2 di Eropah
- Penjajahan, pecah & perintah
- dll

Teori ini juga la yg mahu diaplikasikan oleh negara2 Barat sekarang.  Penjajahan & ekonomi.

Mungkin sesiapa ada idea yg lebih baik mengenai hal ini...

hamizao

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 2-7-2006 10:03 AM
Tetiba I terfikir bahawa Eropah/ Barat bangkit membangun setelah melakukan byk peperangan/  penaklukan/ revolusi.

Atrnya yg I tahu....

- Perang Salib
- Perebutan kuasa atr kuasa sekular dgn  ...

You are absolutely right, fleurzsa. The key to the Westerners' success in creating a global empire in the 16th -17th century was the improvement/development  in military capabilities i.e. the ability to wage war . It was also facilitated by superiority in organization, discipline, training of it's troops, weapons, logistics and medical services to name a few. The west won the world not by superiority of its ideas, values or religion, but rather by the superiority of its organized violence.

As colonies gained independence etc, we see a revival of ethnic culture and usage of ethnic languages. As for religion though Islam is still the second highest in terms of adherence, it is the fastest growing if we exclude the non-religious! Studies show that while Christianity is spread through conversion and more rapidly in westernised societies where the traditional religion cannot adapt to the requirements of modernization, Muslims increased  through both conversion and reproduction. They are expected to overtake the number of Christians some years to come. Will the Muslims be prepared for this???

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 9-7-2006 02:21 PM ]

petola

nampaknya kesimpulan umum di sini ialah kemajuan hanya boleh dicapai dengan adanya kebebasan berfikir.

the moment otak berenti berfikir, atau terpenjara, pada detik itulah juga masa terhenti.

hamizao

Hullo semua...lama tak kemari kerana kesuntukan masa.

Tentang kemajuan ni, Petola, dari pandangan kasar Hami, sekurang2nya perlu juga ada kemahuan dan  penggerak atau "challenge"  kepada pemikiran...baru ada pertukaran dan peningkatan.

fleurzsa

Originally posted by hamizao at 16-7-2006 12:22 AM
Hullo semua...lama tak kemari kerana kesuntukan masa.
Tentang kemajuan ni, Petola, dari pandangan kasar Hami, sekurang2nya perlu juga ada kemahuan dan  penggerak atau "challenge"  kepa ...

Hello... hamizao adalah salah seorg forumner di sini yg akan dirasai kehilangannya jika tiada dlm masa yg lama he he he he

Hmmmm... kena semak balik teori2 pemikiran.

hamizao

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 16-7-2006 12:54 AM


Hello... hamizao adalah salah seorg forumner di sini yg akan dirasai kehilangannya jika tiada dlm masa yg lama he he he he

Hmmmm... kena semak balik teori2 pemikiran.

Kekadang melekat kat thread yang lain pun ada.  lol
La ni ada lega sikitlah ....boleh jenguk2 sana sini.

tinangol_csm

satu falsafah eropah selepas renaissance yang saya minat ..
..pelajari la ilmu ini,dan sebarkanlah kepada semua orang ...

bandingkan dengan ini,
...tok guru mesti simpan satu , mana boleh murid mengalah tok guru ..
setiap generasi akan. hilang satu

ini cerita dulu, tak tau la sekarang.

galaxie83

sokong...europe banyak belajar dari muslim, chinese civilization, mmg tak bleh nafi... wat they did, is that dont juz take it, the renew, challenge the ideas n push it for better... while on muslim blocks, they reach the peak of civilization, n they stop think outside the box...

ni pendapat i le...

dCrook

Kemunduran middle east disebabkan sifat-sifat orang arab/islam sendiri.. Mereka lebih menumpukan byk masa tentang hal-hal keagamaan sehingga bidang matematik dan cabang2 ilmu lain dilupakan. Banyak research2 dihalang disbb kang "bertentangan" dengan agama.  memang la agama itu penting tapi hidup perlu la berwasatiah. ada balance dalam semua perkara yang dilakukan termasuk la jenis ilmu, balance between dunia dan akhirat. Heheh. ini apa yang aku belajar time kelas agama kat sekolah dulu la..

Ramai orang kata kerajaan islam sepanyol tumbang disebabkan mereka sudah lupa perintah tuhan. Tapi korang tau tak, kerajaan tersebut tutumbang semasa dipimpian oleh barisan-barisan ulama (ikut takrifan kita la ulama = ahli agama). Tapi kenapa still tumbang gak? jeng jeng jeng.. keni pikir nih..

[ Last edited by  dCrook at 12-5-2007 07:18 PM ]

HangPC2

Originally posted by dCrook at 12-5-2007 07:15 PM
Kemunduran middle east disebabkan sifat-sifat orang arab/islam sendiri.. Mereka lebih menumpukan byk masa tentang hal-hal keagamaan sehingga bidang matematik dan cabang2 ilmu lain dilupakan. Bany ...

Fardu Ain Dan Fardu Kifayah Kene Seimbang