KS-1A ATM choice?

johngage

In my opinion we have to face reality. Only first world countries, with first world budgets can afford a first class airforce. Modern fighter planes are very expensive to purchase. They are even more difficult to maintain. Training pilots is also a very expensive business. Pilots are only useful if they have sufficient flight hours. To ensure sufficient flight hours maintenance will have to be very heavy, again increasing cost. In Malaysia's case, I honestly don't think it is within our economic means to have enough pilots and planes to give us any real war-winning capability.

In fact I see the gap between the RMAF and the RSAF increasing NOT closing in the next 15-20 years. I think that we should adopt Egypt's approach to Israel in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Knowing that the Egyptian airforce could not match Israel's air superiority, they decided to close the gap by buying the most sophisticated SAM's available. This would make a lot of sense in Malaysia's case. Buying a battery of Aster is a lot cheaper than buying a squadron of SU-30's. It is also easier to maintain. Training a SAM operator is also a great deal cheaper than training a pilot. In fact most US pilots say that their greatest fear is not another enemy aircraft. The last time a US pilot was shot down in air to air combat was in 1972. The US know that most developing countries cannot afford to give their pilots enough flight hours. It is modern SAM's that US pilots fear most. And Malaysia has perfect terrain for mobile SAM's. Lots of mountains and jungle for us to hide them in times of war.

tankee1981

Originally posted by johngage at 5-11-2006 05:17 PM
In my opinion we have to face reality. Only first world countries, with first world budgets can afford a first class airforce. Modern fighter planes are very expensive to purchase. They are even mo ...

I agree that alot of money is necessary to develop the military. The Singapore government spends alot of the annual budget on defence. Yes, having a strong military is good deterance but i also feel that part of the military budget can be used for other purposes such as social security etc.

gancity

i agree... i thk now ATM now are try doing on tis... they try to equip the good SAM jst like Igla, Anza & Jernas...

for me KS-1A is very good for air base/navy/army base defence... BUK-M1 hv a good mobility suit for any kind of defence...Aster wit it VTOL very good for city defence like Putra Jaya, KL...so on...

so i thk ntg wrong if v choose either 1 of the system or 2 out of 3...as long as the system able integrate wit existing system, easy maintain, cost effective , reliable & effective...

by the way, Hawk-AMRAAM also a good choice...

[ Last edited by  gancity at 5-11-2006 07:50 PM ]

gancity

abit too expensive for us now.... and v no use it for against any tactical missiles

mdmee

Originally posted by johngage at 5-11-2006 05:17 PM
In my opinion we have to face reality. Only first world countries, with first world budgets can afford a first class airforce. Modern fighter planes are very expensive to purchase. They are even mo ...

I totally agree with you on this ..

IceMallet

Aku pun prefer Buk M1, tapi aku bukan yer defence planner nor terlibat dalam bahagian procurement ATM...maybe KS1A is not that bad, anyway we have the opportunity to buy more missiles due to its lower cost...anyway, launcher tu leh buat locally kalau kaw tim dengan company pengeluar KS1A

reinloch

Originally posted by johngage at 5-11-2006 05:17 PM
In my opinion we have to face reality. Only first world countries, with first world budgets can afford a first class airforce. Modern fighter planes are very expensive to purchase. They are even mo ...

This is a tad pessimistic. Our reality is that we can afford a small first class airforce. Our planners are stuck with a money-bleeding ToT policy, and had made poor choices and had allocated contracts to ill-motivated people, resulting in the illusion of a second rate RMAF that is always not capable of lifting itself from obscurity. Modern fighters are expensive. But modern multiroles can do a lot more than SAMs. SAMs are not show stoppers, period. You merely degrade the enemy's ability to achieve air superiority, not stop it. The Yom Kippur War was 33 years ago. The superiority of NATO airpower over Kosovo was absolute.

johngage

This is a tad pessimistic. Our reality is that we can afford a small first class airforce. Our planners are stuck with a money-bleeding ToT policy, and had made poor choices and had allocated contracts to ill-motivated people, resulting in the illusion of a second rate RMAF that is always not capable of lifting itself from obscurity. Modern fighters are expensive. But modern multiroles can do a lot more than SAMs. SAMs are not show stoppers, period. You merely degrade the enemy's ability to achieve air superiority, not stop it.

I am not suggesting for one second that SAM's can replace modern fighters, or that they are "show-stoppers". But for a country which is unable to afford a a large first class airforce, it is the next best thing. There is no doubt that AWACS and modern multiroles "can do a lot more than SAM's", but to be effective they must be operated and flown by well trained pilots in large numbers, with large quantities of PGM's and logistics. This aspect of air defense is way too expensive for Malaysia. We are struggling to find enough pilots as it is, and the less said about our logistics, the better. My point was that if a developing nation wants to defend its airspace, then basically any given amount of money is much better spent on a modern air surveillance network tied in to a modern SAM network, all controlled by a modern C2 network, than it is spent on a modern air surveillance network, tied into some modern fighters, all controlled by a modern C2 network, and maintaining well-trained fighter pilots to fly them. Air defenses are for stopping airpower, and it's much easier for developing countries to man SAM batteries than to man fighter squadrons, and much more effective.

The Yom Kippur War was 33 years ago.

The Yom Kippur War may have been 33 years ago but the Egyptian strategy was sound. The Israeli airforce suffered terrible losses during the Yom Kippur War (1973) (102 aircraft shotdown), and certainly much worse than any Arab airforce could inflict in the Six Day War (1967), War of Attrition (1969-1970), or the War in Lebanon (1982). In fact it was Sadat's decision to advance beyond his SAM "umbrella" (against his generals advice) to help Syria, that led to the IAF regaining the initiative.

The superiority of NATO airpower over Kosovo was absolute

I certainly don't doubt that NATO's air superiority was absolute, but you are missing the point. No country can withstand a US/NATO air assault with impunity. With the possible exception of Israel, you are talking about some of the best and well-equipped airforces in the world (USAF, RAF, Luftwaffe...etc). However through the use of clever strategy and tactics, the Serbs managed to preserve their military largely intact against NATO's Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD) campaign, in contrast with the Iraqis in Op Desert Storm.

In fact NATO never fully succeeded in neutralizing the the Serb air defences, and NATO aircraft were always within the engagement envelopes of Serb SA-3/SA-6 SAM's. Even during the operation's final week, NATO spokesmen conceded that they could confirm the destruction of only 3 of Serbia's 25 mobile SA-6 batteries. Wesley Clark, the US Supreme Allied Commander reported many instances of near-misses involving enemy SAM launches against NATO aircraft. Now, it is true that only 2 NATO aircraft were shot down. But enough of the Serb air defence remained intact to require NATO fighters to operate above 15,000 feet throughout the ops. This meant that NATO had to dedicate a larger than usual number of strike sorties to SEAD. Thus fewer sorties were available for NATO mission planners to allocate to enemy military targets. In conclusion, the effectiveness of the Serb SAM's can be judged by the fact that while NATO believed it had destroyed about 200 Serbian tanks during the conflict, only 12 were subsequently confirmed destroyed.

[ Last edited by  johngage at 6-11-2006 11:10 AM ]

jofizo

apa2 ajerlah asalkan ada......... ada VERA takder SAM tak guna jugak....

windof

Kalau ada SAM, ada Vera n Kolchuga, dan ada MRCA banyak lagi kawtim....

paleface0711

Originally posted by gancity at 4-11-2006 01:06 PM
For wat I know about Jernas is 3 launcher, 1 Blindfire tracking radar and 1 Dagger surveillance radar consider 1 standard squad/battalion(i no sure how to determine it)  & ATM jst brought 2 bat ...

Main page - http://www.geocities.com/kbmyaf/
http://www.geocities.com/kbmyaf/TDM_Equip.htm

This is my source that mentions ATM bought 9 Rapier SAM launchers, 3 Blindfire tracking radar and 3 Dagger surveillance radar . This would equipt 3 SAM batteries.

gancity

i get from Tempur Magazine but i forget which edition already...
hmm...i thk the number v no need know so detail cz is country defence secret...

reinloch

We're certainly developing, and our defense budget will most likely benefit from that, and we'll have more options to weigh (provided inflation doesn't catch up as fast). In our current relatively peaceful situation, can we not buy a cheaper SAM system (which is already acknowledged to be only part of a real AD, not all of it), and use the remaining resource to slowly but surely build up our main AD arm, that is, the airforce? And as I had said, maintaining a modern airfleet is expensive, but it can do a lot more. Buying a first class SAM doesn't remove our need for strike capability or for intercepts outside the SAMs engagement zone. I'm thinking strategically, 10-20 years down the road.

gancity

i thk in 9MP...ATM will bring more focus on air defence & EW defence...

& now they try looking for suitable radar & SAM & other EW system

Laxamana.

As far as we know, Malaysia has agreed in principle to purchase medium-range missiles from China, which in return will transfer technology on very short-range air defence to the country, Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak said on Tuesday, .Jul 20, 2004.

The procurement of the surface-to-air missiles was part of the armed forces modernisation program and would be made under the Ninth Malaysia Plan from 2006-2009, he was quoted as saying by Bernama news agency. "Details of the procurement and offset programme will be finalised later should Malaysia give its full commitment," he said after the signing of a memorandum of understanding on the purchase. The cost of the weapons were not revealed.

Under the pact between China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. and two local companies, CNPMIEC would transfer technology on production of the FN-6 shoulder-launched missiles to Malaysia if it purchases its medium-range KS-1A missiles, Bernama said.

This includes provisions for special test facilities, tools, manufacturing process document, training and technical support. CNPMIEC president Wang Bingyan said China had also offered to conclude the KS-1A transaction on flexible payment terms, including counter-trade, barter and deferred payments.

The KaiShan-1 (KS-1) is a medium- to long-range, all-altitude surface-to-air missile system developed by China Academy of Defence Technology (CADT). Developed from the second- (upper-) stage of the HQ-2 SAM, the missile is highlighted by its SJ-212 3D phased-array radar. The development of the KS-1 was completed in 1994 but it did not enter service with the PLA due to unsatisfactory performance. An improved variant KS-1A was promoted to the export market and Malaysia may become the first user of the missile. Sekarang perkara export market model KS-1A lah yang sedang dipertimbangkan... ini termasuk jugak pembangunan pelbagai lagi teknologi ketenteraan China. Malaysia juga boleh menjadi second hub pemasaran export model yang diintegrasikan dengan sistem-sistem lain. Ini peluang yang pasti nya sukar dilepaskan.



Versi mula KS-1A pakai pod kaki empat. The basic variant of the KS-1 was launched from a fixed four-leg pedestal launcher developed from the HQ-2 launcher. Each launcher has two ready-to-fire missiles mounted on slant launch-rails. The improved KS-1A is launched from a mobile launcher mounted on a 6X6 truck, each carrying two missiles.




Versi terbaru KS-1A diletakkan dibelakang trak khas dan menjadi pilihan Malaysia kerana kuasa 'high maneuvre capability' dan murah. Ini memudahkan bateri KS-1A diaturgerak dan diletakkan dipelbagai posisi strategik berbanding BUK-M1 yang bewrunut diatas chasis tank. Namun BUK-M1 sekadar 1 atau 2 bateri kalau dibeli tu bagus juga sebagai elemen perang tidak semetri dikawasan 'high profile' untuk menghadapi sistem penyerakan musuh yang lebih canggih.



Designed mainly to engage aircraft and helicopters at altitudes of 500m to a maximum of 25,000m, the KS-1 can also engage air-launched tactical missiles. The single-chamber dual thrust, solid-fuelled missile, weighing 886kg, can engage targets flying as low as 0.5km and as high as 25km, has a slant range of 7km to 42km (KS-1A 50km) and a maximum speed of 1,200m/s.

The basic variant KS-1 is guided by the SJ-212 target acquisition radar mounted on a four-wheel trailer. The SJ-212 is the first Chinese indigenous 3D phased array radar featuring a search range of 115km, a tracing range of 80km and a guiding range of 50km. The radar is working at G-band, being able to guide six missiles to attack three to six targets. It is also said to have an impressive anti-jamming capability.

Untuk Malaysia, the improved KS-1A is guided by a more advanced HT-233 3D C-band mono-pulse planar phased array radar, which operates in the 300MHz bandwidth and has a detection range of 120km and tracking range of 90km. It can detect targets in azimuth (360 degrees) and elevation (0 to 65 degrees). Coupled to the Brigade command & control centre, it can track some 100 airborne targets and can simultaneously engage more than 50 targets.

SPECIFICATIONS

Missile dimensions: length 5.6m; Diameter 0.4m; Wingspan 1.2m
Launch weight: 900kg
Propulsion: Solid rocket booster
Operating altitude: 0.5~25Km
Operating range: 7~42km, or(KS-1A) 5~50km
Maximum speed: 1,200m/s
Missile manoeuvrability: 20G
Guidance: Radar command
Warhead: 100kg HE fragmentation, with radio frequency proximity fuse
Single shot hit probability: N/A
Max target manoeuvring capability: 4~5G

Ini fakta  yang telah di update setakat 22 December 05. Malaysia dapat sistem yang baik dan murah dari China kira satu rahmat lah. Sememangnya kita memerlukan kuantiti yang agak besar bateri SAM untuk membentu umbrella yang dapat cover sebahagian besar kawasan strategik, kalau tak pun keseluruhan tanah daratan Malaysia. . Kalau BUK-M1 dapat beli satu atau dua bateri je tak dapat membantu banyak, kerana serangan boleh datang dari pelbagai arah yang tidak dapat dicapai oleh radar penjejak nya.

Laxamana.

Persoalan samada Malaysia akan beli atau tidak KS-1A sebenarnya sudah hampir jelas. Sekurang-kurangnya pasti ada senjata Made in China yang akan sampai dalam RM-9 ni. Ni clue-clue nya melalui akhbar China.

China, Malaysia to step up defense cooperation

PLA Daily 2006-05-27

??BEIJING, May 26 (Xinhua) -- Chinese and Malaysian military leaders on Friday agreed to intensify cooperation in defense to safeguard regional stability.

??Malaysia's Chief of Armed Forces Tan Sri Dato Sri Mohd Anwar bin Hj Nor, who is on a six-day visit to China, held talks with Chief of the General Staff of the People's Liberation Army Liang Guanglie.

??They agreed that friendly exchanges and cooperation were in the interests of both countries and would help safeguard regional peace and stability.

??Liang expressed China's appreciation for the Malaysian government's one-China policy.

??After the talks, Anwar also met with China's Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan.


Chinese, Malaysian defense ministers discuss military ties

PLA Daily 2006-04-11

??KUALA LUMPUR, April 10 (Xinhua) -- Malaysian Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Najib Tun Razak met with visiting Chinese Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan here on Monday, and they exchanged views over the two countries' relations and ties between the armed forces.

??Cao, who is also vice chairman of the Central Military Commission of China and a state councilor, said China and Malaysia are close and friendly neighbors and the cooperation between the countries has been expanding in various fields in recent years.

??The relations between the armed forces of the two countries have also made much progress in recent years, and China is willing to make concerted efforts with Malaysia to deepen the friendly cooperation, Cao said.

??Cao also expressed appreciation of the Malaysian government's adherence to the one-China policy and its support to China's reunification cause.

??Najib said Malaysia firmly upholds the one-China policy and is committed to unceasingly strengthen the friendly cooperation of mutual respect and mutual benefit between the two countries.

??The Malaysian armed forces are willing to expand and deepen the friendly cooperation with China's armed forces, he said.

??Cao arrived here earlier Monday for an official goodwill visit to the country at the invitation of Najib.
................................................................................................................................

Dikobarkan, bahawa China dah jual pun KS-1A dan teknologi FN-6 SAMs kepada Malaysia, traning personnel dari ATM pun dikatakan kerap pergi ke China sebulan sekali... Perarakan 50 tahun Kemerdekaan Tanah Melayu pasti nya grand.. maklum lah Jubli Emas. China pun sengaja mencara rakan strategik seperti Malaysia sebagai front hadapan setelah Singapore menggunakan Taiwan sebagai training ground dan penempatan tentera nya di luar Singapura. Singapura mempunyai penempatan tentera yang besar di Taiwan atas nama kod Starlight units yang digunakan sebagai counter attack force jikalau Malaysia melanggar Singapura nanti. Ini faktanya, STARLIGHT UNIT will be use to retake Singapore if Singapore has been attack by Malaysia, either the country has fallen, or barely holds on to, expecting the Starlight units in Taiwan, plus a major portion of ROC military(Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines) to help to retake Singapore, ie, the 7 days ship ride I mentioned ealier. This was the agreement in 1970s. There was some changes done to the agreement in 1990s, but nothing coming out of it.

As for what Starlight units would do in time of Taiwan Strait war, the original agreement gave/authorized
command of Starlight units to ROC military, not local command/HQ, but to the GSHQ(General Staff HQ). Mostly likely to be used as to holding the fort/bases, not into front line combat area or become 2nd line of
defense, if that's what's been worry about.

Oleh itu, tidak hairan lah, jikalau Malaysia juga akan mempunyai latihan bersama tentera PLA di China nanti dan kedua-dua negara mempunyai perjanjian ketenteraan yang 'unik'. Ada kepentingan... boleh nampak kot.. bukar sekadar nak beli roket China je... there's more to it.

areguard

Lax, back in 2004 member aku kat MOF dah cerita dia pening kepala kena arah carik duit, tarik bajet Kementerian mana yg ada baki untuk beli misile dari China. TApi dia tak kata jenis apa, tapi aku dah agak menatang tu mesti KS1-A dgn FN6 nilah yg kita bayar. Tapi being gomen officers kita tak taulah keupayaan sebenar sistem tu tapi yg pasti MINDEF dan perancang pertahanan negara setuju nakkan benda ni so kami cari aje jalan nak dapatkan duit. So mungkin benar jugaklah ATM dah beli sistem ni. My 2 cents la

johngage

Tapi being gomen officers kita tak taulah keupayaan sebenar sistem tu tapi yg pasti MINDEF dan perancang pertahanan negara setuju nakkan benda ni so kami cari aje jalan nak dapatkan duit

Saya bukan pakar tentang peruntukan senjata untuk Malaysia. Tapi setahu saya peruntukan bergantung atas Perdana Menteri dan Menteri Kewangaan. Menteri Pertahanan dan MINDEF tiada kuasa benda ini. Input adalah, tapi kuasa ditangan Jabatan PM dan Treasury. PM dan Finance Minister yang membuat keputusan atas senjata mana yang akan dipilih. Kerana itu kadang kadang senjata yang dipilih bukan apa yang ATM minta. Kerana itu arahan PM dan Finance Minister dipanggil "wahyu"

[ Last edited by  johngage at 7-11-2006 10:18 AM ]

Laxamana.

Military deals with China are  not just simply 'wahyu-wahyu' things atau suka-suka je atas 'half cooked' decisions ... there are more things attached to it. I have stated a little bit about Singapore's ties with Taiwan that draws China even closer to have ties with Malaysia in military. KS-1A and manpads technology are just for a start...

guyfawke

Betul En Lax... saya pun ade 'dengar2' benda ni many moons ago tapi lepas tu senyap aje.tak tahu le kalau sengaja disenyapkan tapi I agree with u that there are more to it than just rockets cuma to what extent, hanya certain people in the admin. saje yg tahu. Bukan Sing aje ada secret weapon.....