|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 7-5-2014 05:13 PM 
thnks seph
again, Y god created evil if he created everything? Y not pure goodness? if he cou ...
Yes, God pre-planned everything. I don't think the word 'control' is the suitable word here. When someone committed a crime, it's not because of his hand was under control and automatically moved by its own and then committed the crime. Take a look at just before he commited the crime; basically he had choices, either to do it or NOT to do it. He cannot say that "I have to do it because God already pre-planned this" because the crime haven't taken place yet so for sure he cannot know that if "commit the crime" has been the pre-planned choice from God. But one thing for sure, he knows that God says NOT to commit the crime. So, based on this clear guidance would he still commit the crime and then blame the God?
Last edited by mashimaru83 on 10-5-2014 11:21 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you put every misery as part of God's tests, then everything would make sense; in other words, the reason God created evil is to test human beings.
Yes, TEST TEST. what is all this? experiment? like scientist test his hypothesis?
if he is ALL KNOWING, why would test us?
e.g.
a person A who commit adultery, homicide, rape etc all his life, upon death, he repent and believe in god and got his place at heaven.
a person B, a loving person living deep in forest in a small village, decent living, help fellow villagers, etc. but he never encounter religion. and he is condemned in hell?
what about people who lived before time of jesus or mohd? all condemned in hell? because jesus is yet to preach religion or mohd is yet to get his wahyu from allah?
Yes, God pre-planned everything. I don't think the word 'control' is the suitable word here. When someone committed a crime, it's not because of his hand was under control and automatically moved by its own and then committed the crime. Take a look at just before he commited the crime; basically he had choices, either to do it or NOT to do it. He cannot say that "I have to do it because God already pre-planned this" because the crime haven't taken place yet so for sure he cannot know that if "commit the crime" has been the pre-planned choice from God. But one thing for sure, he knows that God says NOT to commit the crime. So, based on this clear guidance would he still commit the crime and then blame the God?
if clear indication that it is pre planned, there is no choice. so if there is to be choice(which future is random, yes or no that is decided by us), surely it cannot be pre planned.
its like saying can the almighty create a stone so heavy that he cant lift?
Last edited by wei_loon5063 on 10-5-2014 12:15 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 10-5-2014 12:10 PM
If you put every misery as part of God's tests, then everything would make sense; in other words, the reason God created evil is to test human beings.
Yes, TEST TEST. what is all this? experiment? like scientist test his hypothesis?
if he is ALL KNOWING, why would test us?
e.g.
a person A who commit adultery, homicide, rape etc all his life, upon death, he repent and believe in god and got his place at heaven.
a person B, a loving person living deep in forest in a small village, decent living, help fellow villagers, etc. but he never encounter religion. and he is condemned in hell?
what about people who lived before time of jesus or mohd? all condemned in hell? because jesus is yet to preach religion or mohd is yet to get his wahyu from allah?
Yes, God pre-planned everything. I don't think the word 'control' is the suitable word here. When someone committed a crime, it's not because of his hand was under control and automatically moved by its own and then committed the crime. Take a look at just before he commited the crime; basically he had choices, either to do it or NOT to do it. He cannot say that "I have to do it because God already pre-planned this" because the crime haven't taken place yet so for sure he cannot know that if "commit the crime" has been the pre-planned choice from God. But one thing for sure, he knows that God says NOT to commit the crime. So, based on this clear guidance would he still commit the crime and then blame the God?
if clear indication that it is pre planned, there is no choice. so if there is to be choice(which future is random, yes or no that is decided by us), surely it cannot be pre planned.
its like saying can the almighty create a stone so heavy that he cant lift?
You are confused with regards to 'predestination'. It means foreknowing not control or preplanned.
Knowing something before it is done is not the same as controlling to it be done. This is because we are created with free will and a means to execute the will. This is where the concept of sin comes along. You do wrong , you have sinned because it is done against the provided guidance. An example is that the authorities know or foreknow someone will try to beat the red light. They install cameras and catch the light beaters ending with a fine and / or jail. It is again foreknowing and the consequence of the action.
a person A who commit adultery, homicide, rape etc all his life, upon death, he repent and believe in god and got his place at heaven.
a person B, a loving person living deep in forest in a small village, decent living, help fellow villagers, etc. but he never encounter religion. and he is condemned in hell?
what about people who lived before time of jesus or mohd? all condemned in hell? because jesus is yet to preach religion or mohd is yet to get his wahyu from allah?
The person A has basically sinned in 2 fronts - the people he aggrieved and to Allah. Allah might forgive him on his repentence however he still need to answer against the person he killed or raped etc
Islam has not reached the person B. Nothing is held against him as he did not receive the message. Quran17:15 (sahih international)
....And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.
It is an article of faith for us muslims to believe that there have been 25 messengers of Allah up to and including Prophet Muhammad(saw). Therefore the message of Islam has been consistent throughout the ages and those who submitted to Allah are ok.
Creating a stone so big that it cannot be lifted is a fallacy of an atheist argument. It is a contradictory statement. If a being can create something , the thing he created can be carried. You have opened yourself to 2 contradictory arguments
- How much power will it take to make a stone as big that it can't even be lifted by Go? As we know God is infinate.
- There can't be a stone which is immovable. If the stone has to be immovable, it has to have infinite inertia and thus infinite mass. Under this condition it will crumble under its own gravity. And this is a law made by God and God doesn't break his laws.
Last edited by sam1528 on 10-5-2014 02:09 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Islam has not reached the person B. Nothing is held against him as he did not receive the message. Quran17:15 (sahih international)
OK. since ALL is created by GOD.
and BELIEVER, good go to heaven, bad goes to hell, where does kafir goes to?
in the example B, where does the person goes to?
and in ARAB, where does arabs went to prior to saw mohd wahyu?
Last edited by wei_loon5063 on 10-5-2014 02:17 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You are confused with regards to 'predestination'. It means foreknowing not control or preplanned.
Knowing something before it is done is not the same as controlling to it be done. This is because we are created with free will and a means to execute the will.
why does GOD input sin in u? Y give you free will? n test u?
if he is foreknowing, then thus he know you will sin as he put sin onto you.
its like a man set a bait and let d guy decide if he falls for it, if he does, to hell he goes, else heaven is rewarded. Y dont you end your life now n rejoin HIM in heaven forever? Y wait for him to take your lif. then what is your purpose in life? to be with him? Last edited by wei_loon5063 on 10-5-2014 02:26 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yes, I concur that GOD is loving and just. but why created human unequal? since they will be ended up in heaven / hell either way.
e.g. Y some ppl R born rich, some R born as handicap? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 10-5-2014 12:10 PM
If you put every misery as part of God's tests, then everything would make sense; in other words, th ...
Obviously the purpose of the test is to get human beings to enter the heaven in hereafter. If you passed the test, you will enter the Heaven, else you will end up in Hell.
Yes, He is all knowing, but why that stop Him from creating the test? Why do you think He cannot create some human beings to enter the Heaven and some to enter the Hell according His own wisdom? After all, a powerful being, all knowing, God can do whatever he want (Godly thing) according to His own wisdom. If I designed a car, I can do whatever I want to that car, it's my car and I created it after all. Yes I KNOW everything about the car but I don't see any reason as of why should I let you to decide of what should I do with my car. You didn't create that car after all.
Person A and Person B will be judged accordingly. Everything you mentioned above will be taken into account during the judgement day for Person A and Person B.
Before Muhammad and Jesus (peace be upon them), there were other Messengers sent by God. So, not all are condemned in hell.
wei_loon5063:
if clear indication that it is pre planned, there is no choice. so if there is to be choice(which future is random, yes or no that is decided by us), surely it cannot be pre planned.
its like saying can the almighty create a stone so heavy that he cant lift?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 10-5-2014 02:13 PM
Islam has not reached the person B. Nothing is held against him as he did not receive the message. Quran17:15 (sahih international)
OK. since ALL is created by GOD.
and BELIEVER, good go to heaven, bad goes to hell, where does kafir goes to?
in the example B, where does the person goes to?
The 'kafir' goes to hell because (1) don't believe in Allah and / or (2) associate Allah with other deity(ies)
#1 is logical , a person who does not believe in Allah ; they cannot complain if Allah disregard them during judgement day because heaven is reserved for people who submitted to Allah - the rest .... too bad
#2 is also logical - Allah has stated that he has no partners , then the person should seek (the non existent) help from the so called partner diety(ies)
The word 'kafir' does not mean 'infidel'. It means 'the one who covers up'. Meaning they know the truth but deny it.
For the person in example B , it is from an authentic hadith that the person would be tested in the day of judgement. Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad (16301)
Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) said: "Four will have proofs (in their favor) on the Day of Standing: (1) A deaf man who could not hear anything; (2) a fool (who could not understand anything); (3) a feebly old man; and (4) a man who died in the fatrah (the period between prophets). As for the deaf man, then he will say: 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not hear anything.' And as for the fool, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and the children were throwing dung at me.' And as for the feebly old man, then he will say, 'My Lord, Islaam came and I did not understand anything.' And as for the one who died in the fatrah (period between prophets), then he will say, 'My Lord, no messenger from you came to me.' So He (Allaah) will take oaths from them that they will obey Him (in what He is about to request from them), so it (an order) will be sent to them: 'Enter the Fire!' And verily by Him in whose Hand is my soul, if they entered it, it will be cool and soothing."
Lets look at the reality of the issue. People in the jungle who have never come across any religion whatsoever actually believe in an almighty supreme being (ie. God).
The arabs before Prophet Muhammad(saw) were monotheists following the practice of 'Hanif' believing in the God of Prophet Ibrahim(as). Idolatry was introduced ~ 400 yrs before Prophet Muhammad(saw) by Amr Luhayi. The practice of 'Hanifism' survived amidst the idolatry. I bet you don't know that the idolatry during Prophet Muhammad(saw) time is having other dieties in association with Allah NOT replacing Allah. To the Arab pagans , Allah is still the supreme / unseen God but they need to worship the idols , it being the conduit , in order to worship Allah. Prophet Muhammad(saw) came to correct their beliefs that they don't need to worship idols to do such. Simple and straight forward.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 10-5-2014 02:22 PM
You are confused with regards to 'predestination'. It means foreknowing not control or preplanned.
Knowing something before it is done is not the same as controlling to it be done. This is because we are created with free will and a means to execute the will.
why does GOD input sin in u? Y give you free will? n test u?
if he is foreknowing, then thus he know you will sin as he put sin onto you.
its like a man set a bait and let d guy decide if he falls for it, if he does, to hell he goes, else heaven is rewarded. Y dont you end your life now n rejoin HIM in heaven forever? Y wait for him to take your lif. then what is your purpose in life? to be with him?
God does not input sin onto you. The concept of sin is a consequence of an action going against the revealed guideline. Similarly , there is a law of not beating the red light. You do it , you need to face the consequence. This means that you have done something with a full knowledge that it is wrong , yet you do it. This is evident that you do not want to have any accountability for your action.
There is no baiting here. You have been forewarned that doing that something is wrong yet you do it. It again boils down to you having the free will and the means to execute the action. Just like the authorities know that someone would beat the red light , similarly Allah know that you will do something silly due to your free will.
I don't end my life now because unlike you I have a purpose in life that is to submit to Allah.
What purpose do you have in life? Such question is more suited for you. You can end your misery now.
Last edited by sam1528 on 10-5-2014 03:12 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 10-5-2014 08:41 AM
and thus human created atheist word to strengthen your religion
We didn't create atheism. Atheism is byproduct of human evolution. Where the weak-minded who are incapable of achieving Spiritual understanding, gather together to strenght themselves into a cluster (of parasites) against others who are spiritual. One can retrace the Atheism in the World from its beginning to now.
Romans were atheists - creating their own stories of gods just to hide their pathetic evil nature. Eventually, they created the Roman Church and a Jesus myth when they find that many Romans fed up with their original bull$hit of belief system and started to follow Judaism. Then they scrap away any trace of Spiritualism from Judaism and create the Christianity version you have today.
In India - Atheism was a small "problem" which is not worth anyone's time. Till they found Buddhism. Then they scrap away everything Spiritual about Buddhism and recreate its belief based on atheism.
Did the same in China where they mixed their pagan beliefs with Buddhism - which is why Buddha asked them to pray for the dead and they end up burning useless paper and seeking fortune tellers and dark-magic practitioners.
And modern atheism can trace back to the Black Plague in 13th Century. 2/3 of the population of Europe died and the horror was so great, it pushed Europeans to turn away from their false god and find another belief system - Science. Atheism found a new champion in form of Science which continued to this day.
So, atheism was not created by us. You are just evolutionary byproduct which trying your hard to fit into a world which doesn't require you. Very soon, you (atheists) and many others will be wiped clean of this Planet and we (the devoteed) will have our World back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wei_loon5063 posted on 10-5-2014 02:40 PM
yes, I concur that GOD is loving and just. but why created human unequal? since they will be ended u ...
Why ask Muslims the same question to which you already know the answer? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Post time 10-5-2014 11:20 AM
